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Originally Posted by vyvexthorne
In table top alignments hardly matter because you are actively playing your role and there aren't any restrictions to paths you might want to take or questions you might want to ask. In video games however I think it helps you flesh out the character a little more if there are rules that your character must adhere to. A video game is limited and the more options you have to build up your character the easier it is to role play that character.

Exactly. Video games are fundamentally different from tabletop games.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I just figured Larian hasn't implemented alignments yet. I disagree about people saying that is not important to 5e. It has guided character creation and lore as well as decision making in my tabletop games. Also it would make a whole host of spells useless if alignment was not implemented.

You can like or dislike alignment, but it is part of D&D.


Again, there are no spells and abilities that have any rules for alignment. The only place alignment is mentioned in any 5E rules is in a tiny handful of legendary items.


That is not entirely true, the Pact of the Chain Warlock in 5e can get a sprite as a familiar. Sprites have Heart Sight, which allows them to determine alignment of touched creatures. So in a round-about way, warlocks have access to an ability that has rules for alignment.

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The best reputation/alignment system in a CRPG I have ever seen is Pillars of Eternity's reputations where you build up a rep for being Honest, Deceptive, Brutal, or whatever, and it opens up dialogue options for you later. Combined with your regional reputations so that you could be seen as a hero in X place but not well-liked in Y place. It is much more granular and intuitive than alignment, which is rather obsolete and originally only really served as a cosmic team jersey rather than an RP guide. It was a system that both acknowledged the decisions you made as well as recognized the view of being a hero or whatnot was mostly a matter of the perspectives of people other than you.

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Also, the Twitch Q&A has had Larian say they're going to add alignment, but there probably won't be much if any mechanics tied to it. Which is fine, that's a 5e thing.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

For some, alignment systems seem less sophisticated but I think that's just a case of it being done well or not.


It's impossible to do right, morality is subjective. I know this is a fantasy game, but the fantasy of morality being objective is not something I am interested in.


I think there's a difference between pleasing everyone and doing something well.

And it's part of the setting and what makes it special. It's what makes Faerun different than Rivelon or whatever PoE world is called. In the realms morality is real. God really do answer prayers daily and your adherence to alignment (mostly) determines your afterlife.

Why do the gods give people power at all? Why give religions different creeds?

And in other settings like Ravenloft alignment matters even more and the Bhaal powers were really stolen from the Ravenloft 'powers check' mechanic. After three evil acts, after gaining three god like powers you lose yourself to evil and become yet another lord of Ravenloft.


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Found something in 5e that references alignments last night while planning a build (I wasn't going out of my way to look for uses of alignment in D&D 5e, it just happened). The Divine Soul bloodline for Sorcerers has multiple choices for spells and abilities based on alignment (called affinities in the text descriptions of the class). That's from Xanathar's, but I don't know what Larian's plans are for material outside the PHB. But if Larian doesn't want to make a big deal out of alignment, then I'm betting that this subclass won't make the cut.

I understand most of the arguments for and against alignment. I still like it and want to see choices in the game that are black and white in addition to shades of grey. I certainly wouldn't force the alignment system on anyone in tabletop, but I like having some clear heroes and villains in a fantasy setting. YMMV, obviously.

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I think that when AD&D was first written, a black-and-white morality system was at least partly the aim of Alignment. That's back when goblins were Evil and nobody pondered about whether they should be killed or negotiated with, of course.

More modern gaming tends to paint things much more in shades of grey and Alignment is less applicable to that way of viewing ethical decisions.

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The alignment system is not necessary to having clear cut villains and heroes.

And the alignment system does not prevent a shades of grey story, since "shades of grey" doesn't works fine with characters who have clear cut moral compasses...it actually plays at better in most cases to have characters with clear-cut moral compasses in a shades of grey story.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

For some, alignment systems seem less sophisticated but I think that's just a case of it being done well or not.


It's impossible to do right, morality is subjective. I know this is a fantasy game, but the fantasy of morality being objective is not something I am interested in.


I think there's a difference between pleasing everyone and doing something well.

And it's part of the setting and what makes it special. It's what makes Faerun different than Rivelon or whatever PoE world is called. In the realms morality is real. God really do answer prayers daily and your adherence to alignment (mostly) determines your afterlife.

Why do the gods give people power at all? Why give religions different creeds?

And in other settings like Ravenloft alignment matters even more and the Bhaal powers were really stolen from the Ravenloft 'powers check' mechanic. After three evil acts, after gaining three god like powers you lose yourself to evil and become yet another lord of Ravenloft.



Pretty sure that Gods will look after you if you worship them regardless of your alignment, if you just follow their creed.

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idk why people here claim alignments dont work in video games. i genuinly liked them in PFK

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Originally Posted by Sordak
idk why people here claim alignments dont work in video games. i genuinly liked them in PFK


Nah, that was atrocious, being locked out of conversation options because you don't meet the alignment requirements for those options.



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Originally Posted by Sordak
idk why people here claim alignments dont work in video games. i genuinly liked them in PFK


Because they are not binding you to a path. It does not matter if you created a chaotic evil character, you can still act good, and vice versa, with no real consequences. So there is no need for putting it into your character sheet in a video game, because there is no DM that you would have to justify your actions to.
And it is a more accurate portrayal of real world actions. Everyone usually shifts on a moral scale that is pretty tight, but some are more lenient to taking risks on either side of the spectrum, with whatever they can get away with. Generally facing consequences is avoided. Perfect example of today: wearing a mask; regardless of your personal stance, if you can not enter a store without one, or might be fined not wearing one, then use will increase. Your stance on a subject might change, too, depending on circumstances and/or outside interpretation.

If you predetermine that you are evil you leave little room for changing that further along the line. Hence without it you decide for yourself in the game and might get a conclusion of the morals. I would like to see something like a statistic at the end for the PC, like a Karma score.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
I would like to see something like a statistic at the end for the PC, like a Karma score.

That sounds good, but I'd like it available throughout the game. A sort of moral mirror that lets you see the character's ethics as other might view them.

I've mentioned before that I'd like certain dialogue and choice options to register you down one of several potential moral or personality pathways. Ideally, these choices would not be tagged on-screen as 'the flirt', 'the sociopath', 'the rule-follower' and so on, but leave it for the player to decide which is which.

Your relative score in each area might influence how NPCs react to you.

Last edited by Sadurian; 22/10/20 11:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Sordak
idk why people here claim alignments dont work in video games. i genuinly liked them in PFK


Because they are not binding you to a path. It does not matter if you created a chaotic evil character, you can still act good, and vice versa, with no real consequences.

See this here is the issue. You seem to believe this is pretty normal and happens very commonly among people. I profoundly disagree. This does not happen commonly with people. People who behave this way are extremely rare. So making this the norm in a game is immersion-breaking to me. I don't at all buy the evil psycho who loves puppies line. If you're an evil psycho you're an evil psycho. There are no redeeming factors to it. And there ought to be real, meaningful consequences to being an evil psycho.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
If you're an evil psycho you're an evil psycho. There are no redeeming factors to it.

Got to disagree with that. There are many examples of downright evil people who displayed what would be classed as good behaviour. I used to work in a custodial environment (I was a Prison Health Care Officer) and many really nasty people had redeeming features, even if that was just loving their budgie or looking out for their friends.


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Originally Posted by Sadurian
and many really nasty people had redeeming features, even if that was just loving their budgie or looking out for their friends.



Sure. Agreed. I'd even go a step further that on earth, where we live, there is no such thing as "evil" in a theological sense.

But this if Faerun and, in the world of dragons and magic spells, gods and souls are real. Shar wants me to do evil acts. If I do evil acts I will be rewarded with power from her and also be blocked out of certain actions.

And of course alignment should open up and close off certain conversation threads. As should background, class and race. Why should halflings have the [drow] conversation options?

Ironically, Pathfinder is closer to the spirit of D&D than is BG3 right now. (even if I prefer 5th ed to 3.5)


Last edited by KillerRabbit; 22/10/20 04:17 PM.
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I think Pathfinder was always going to feel 'more D&D' to veterans of the game, simply because of how and why it was developed (i.e. as 'D&D 3.75'). While D&D 3e certainly represented a huge change from 2e, I the edition that shall not be named twisted and broke the lineage even more. Hence, 5e has some pretty significant rifts between it and what some still think (maybe subconsciously) of as the 'real' D&D.

Even as an often-times reluctant players of D&D (sometimes you just need to play the game in front of you or what your friends want to play), I still find myself looking back to earlier editions when interpreting rules and situations. I'm not saying they were better, just that their mechanics are still coming to mind when a situation arises in game.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Shar wants me to do evil acts.


No, Shar wants you to do particular things that she is interested in, whether those things are good or evil is subjective.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit


And of course alignment should open up and close off certain conversation threads.



You can't accommodate for all the logic any individual could follow, why would you reduce roleplay value based on your arbitrary interpritation of someones motives?

1) Save the tieflings. [ Good ] ( They've done nothing wrong and don't deserve to die. )
2) Save the tieflings [ Evil ] ( I think tieflings are evil Devil spawns and I want to watch the world burn. )
3) Kill the tieflings [ Good ] ( I think tieflings are evil Devil spawns and I will rid the world of them. )
4) Kill the tieflings [ Evil ] ( I just like killing. )

I can come up with ANY alignment motivations for ANY action, every dialogue choice would have to have like 9+ variants of the SAME option in different flavors, OR we can just roleplay in our head what makes sense.

Last edited by Kadajko; 22/10/20 04:31 PM.
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I'd prefer that dialogue choices 'create' your alignment rather than your alignment forces dialogue choices. If you have a choice of:

1. Kill the tieflings.
2. Negotiate a price with the tieflings for helping them.
3. Help the tieflings.

It should offer each option, and not the one close to your chosen alignment. After all, maybe you are Good but really hate tieflings (one kicked my puppy, you know), or really Evil but feel kinship with them. Choosing the 'good' option should nudge you towards good, and so on.

It's a feature I dislike in PF:KM. Just because I'm not Good, I should be able to spare the Bandit deputy. Maybe I plan to persuade her to help me later. Maybe I admire her choice of career and want her as a friend. Or whatever. I could even be insane and listening to voices. CE or CN, after all, mean that I would rarely be consistent.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Shar wants me to do evil acts.


No, Shar wants you to do particular things that she is interested in, whether those things are good or evil is subjective.



You can only believe that by ignoring pages and pages of D&D lore: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shar

Shar wants to return the world to nothing. She seeks the destruction of all life.

This is what clerics of Shar should do: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Shar

Random murders, destroying good institutions, generating mistrust among allies.


Quote


And of course alignment should open up and close off certain conversation threads.




Quote

You can't accommodate for all the logic any individual could follow, why would you reduce roleplay value based on your arbitrary interpritation of someones motives?


2) Save the tieflings [ Evil ] ( I think tieflings are evil Devil spawns and I want to watch the world burn. )
3) Kill the tieflings [ Good ] ( I think tieflings are evil Devil spawns and I will rid the world of them. )



Guess if you had used intelligence as a dump stat and were unable to make anything from the conversations I could buy that. But if you had a detect evil spell would clear it up instantly and any of your companions should correct your interpretation. In D&D evil isn't arbitrary, it part of you, you can detect it will spells, certain magic items will only respond to certain alignments.

For me you action have no moral consequences it reduces roleplay value.

"Hail there!"
"Oh, I know you, you're the one who slaughtered all those children in the Grove of Silvanus and then had sex with an evil cleric on an unholy altar"
"Well, not all were slaughtered I sold a few kids to the zent slavers and made tidy profit"
"right, right"
"Look, I'm about to go defeat the shadow lord who has been transforming your village into zombies. I may just loot his corpse or I may take his place and become the new terror in your life. Anyway, I wanted to borrow your Sword of Goodness and Light so I defeat him"
"Well I don't see why not. Oh and rest assured we will take up collection for you even if you do end being worse the shadow lord"
"Ta then!"
"Ta!"








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