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I keep seeing that surface effects are the decisive factor in fights and that melee doesn't work but I really don't think so. Fire isn't enough to kill anything really. It just deals a little damage. Meanwhile a warrior with a greatsword can one shot a lot with menacing attack + frighten is crazy good.

The spider? I fought it with 2 rogues backstabbing, wizard throwing spells and cleric healing mostly. I did drop it down by burning its web before combat which really helped. The little spiders pretty much all came in the same turn. After they group up you can just AOE and clean it up. Surface effects would've hurt my rogues more than anything, and they deal BIG damage.

I very rarely use surface effects and the game isn't even hard. I still think there's too much of it. It's not very fun to use when it's so common and often all it does is lengthen the fight when you could just take a straight forward approach instead. But if you as a player feel like surface effects rule fights, I think you haven't given other approaches a fair try. Maybe since it's not part of 5e, you guys are forgetting to utilize backstab and high ground? Just get behind or above enemies and hit them. Stronger than surface effects

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Originally Posted by denhonator
I keep seeing that surface effects are the decisive factor in fights and that melee doesn't work but I really don't think so. Fire isn't enough to kill anything really. It just deals a little damage. Meanwhile a warrior with a greatsword can one shot a lot with menacing attack + frighten is crazy good.

The spider? I fought it with 2 rogues backstabbing, wizard throwing spells and cleric healing mostly. I did drop it down by burning its web before combat which really helped. The little spiders pretty much all came in the same turn. After they group up you can just AOE and clean it up. Surface effects would've hurt my rogues more than anything, and they deal BIG damage.

I very rarely use surface effects and the game isn't even hard. I still think there's too much of it. It's not very fun to use when it's so common and often all it does is lengthen the fight when you could just take a straight forward approach instead. But if you as a player feel like surface effects rule fights, I think you haven't given other approaches a fair try. Maybe since it's not part of 5e, you guys are forgetting to utilize backstab and high ground? Just get behind or above enemies and hit them. Stronger than surface effects


You don't even need to make a rogue, heal, waste spells, etc... classes don't even matter, there's so much freaking cheese. And having 10 enemies go for the squishie i assure you that no one can evade unless rngjesus is favoring them through the whole fight ( Extremely rare with how the dice roll is implemented ). If you fight it legit you get overwhelmed right away, the normal phase spiders also do very good dmg with acid spits and even the small ones hit hard. You can't count on the ini system either because of how broken and random it is. I literally can clear this fight using the shittiest char you can think of just by abusing the hide mechanic. The big spider only needs 1 successful attack to one shot you. You are not getting the point at all, the whole backstab abuse and advantage is also a D:OS thing. You didn't beat that fight legit or like a D&D game, you were just abusing the gimmicky larian feature like always.

No one is saying that this game is hard when is exactly the opposite because of all the gimmicks and bad mechanic implementation.

Last edited by JDCrenton; 23/10/20 07:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
You didn't beat that fight legit or like a D&D game, you were just abusing the gimmicky larian feature like always.


So walking behind an enemy to attack it is abusing mechanics? The game isn't pure 5e and if you're gonna play it like it is, it won't go in your favor.

Also sure people get KO'd. Cleric can get them back up as a bonus action with heal. Let's say someone straight up dies. You should still have scrolls to revive them and keep going. Since the enemies tend to focus one person, it's not like the whole party is getting wiped, so the survivors can help that one guy.

I do agree there's a lot of cheese but you don't really have to play that way. Of course if you count backstab as cheese then it's pretty hard to avoid

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Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
You didn't beat that fight legit or like a D&D game, you were just abusing the gimmicky larian feature like always.


So walking behind an enemy to attack it is abusing mechanics? The game isn't pure 5e and if you're gonna play it like it is, it won't go in your favor.

Also sure people get KO'd. Cleric can get them back up as a bonus action with heal. Let's say someone straight up dies. You should still have scrolls to revive them and keep going. Since the enemies tend to focus one person, it's not like the whole party is getting wiped, so the survivors can help that one guy.

I do agree there's a lot of cheese but you don't really have to play that way. Of course if you count backstab as cheese then it's pretty hard to avoid


Thanks for not getting it just like the title of this thread. Hope you enjoy D:OS 3.

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Originally Posted by denhonator
I keep seeing that surface effects are the decisive factor in fights and that melee doesn't work but I really don't think so. Fire isn't enough to kill anything really. It just deals a little damage. Meanwhile a warrior with a greatsword can one shot a lot with menacing attack + frighten is crazy good.

The spider? I fought it with 2 rogues backstabbing, wizard throwing spells and cleric healing mostly. I did drop it down by burning its web before combat which really helped. The little spiders pretty much all came in the same turn. After they group up you can just AOE and clean it up. Surface effects would've hurt my rogues more than anything, and they deal BIG damage.

I very rarely use surface effects and the game isn't even hard. I still think there's too much of it. It's not very fun to use when it's so common and often all it does is lengthen the fight when you could just take a straight forward approach instead. But if you as a player feel like surface effects rule fights, I think you haven't given other approaches a fair try. Maybe since it's not part of 5e, you guys are forgetting to utilize backstab and high ground? Just get behind or above enemies and hit them. Stronger than surface effects


You don't even need to make a rogue, heal, waste spells, etc... classes don't even matter, there's so much freaking cheese. And having 10 enemies go for the squishie i assure you that no one can evade unless rngjesus is favoring them through the whole fight ( Extremely rare with how the dice roll is implemented ). If you fight it legit you get overwhelmed right away, the normal phase spiders also do very good dmg with acid spits and even the small ones hit hard. You can't count on the ini system either because of how broken and random it is. I literally can clear this fight using the shittiest char you can think of just by abusing the hide mechanic. The big spider only needs 1 successful attack to one shot you. You are not getting the point at all, the whole backstab abuse and advantage is also a D:OS thing. You didn't beat that fight legit or like a D&D game, you were just abusing the gimmicky larian feature like always.

No one is saying that this game is hard when is exactly the opposite because of all the gimmicks and bad mechanic implementation.


This is amazing, and freaking hilarious. Someone lays out a "non exploit" method to take on a fight, and you fall back on what you do? Larian did not invent sneak attacks. In fact, DnD would be closer to that "title" than anything else. I had sneak attacks on my rogue in Baldur's Gate 1. How is that a "larian tactic"? Did 5e remove sneak attacks? If I look up an online manual, and find it, can I just link it to every post you make from now on saying "but it's not DnD"? "But barrels" are in FPS games, and even 3rd person shooters that predate Larian. "But elemental arrows" were in the first BG game. "but surfaces", Grease says hello, along with a myriad of other AoE spells that have been in DnD since before there was a real Player's Handbook.

The scenario painted in the post you quoted here? That's something that I've seen used in table top sessions that predate even 3.5. So I'm not sure what you're going on about, except maybe "It's not what I want, so no matter how much people show me that the exploits I use in combat aren't required, they are, and that's bad". You see, my solution to "too many barrels" is that I don't carry them around with me. Burning a web out from under a spider isn't "cheese" or "a Larian/DOS system", unless you're trying to claim that Larian games are the only games where webs are flammable? You see, in order to get to your level of animosity to this game, I really do have to take it to that ridiculous length. There's no other way for me to get there. I have to assume that Larian made the very first PC game with exploding barrels, and that CC/damaging AoE spells are a direct result of Larian's influence on gaming. Of course, the sheer number of games that I've played that predate Larian, and yet have some or all of these mechanics in them is staggering, but hey, I've got to try to find some way to support your narrative, right?

Serious question: Are you next going to try to claim that TB combat is a Larian feature too? It's about the only thing left you haven't tried to attribute to them.

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The thing is... you shouldn't be constantly getting into a situation where backstab/sneak attack is possible, since the enemy is assumed to follow your movements/positioning unless distracted by someone else (flanking) or completely unaware of you. That's also why disengage and hide absolutely have to be actions instead of bonus actions.

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
The thing is... you shouldn't be constantly getting into a situation where backstab/sneak attack is possible, since the enemy is assumed to follow your movements/positioning unless distracted by someone else (flanking) or completely unaware of you. That's also why disengage and hide absolutely have to be actions instead of bonus actions.

I agree with this. As it is, why not get the backstab when possible? And make use of the jump disengage. But it's something they should change so that it's not so easy to get everywhere during combat with any class. That's a pretty big balance adjustment and I'm sure they would balance other aspects accordingly such that they aren't just making melee or the game in general harder

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Actually did the spider fight without using explodables and surface abuse ( Didn't even knock it down shooting all the webs ). It's not tailored to beat it with any class atm ( Specially Melee ), the dmg it does is dumb ( Has heavy damage area attack ) just like the HP scaling and has infinite teleports. The only way you can beat it is through hide cheese. Also check how many spiders they throw at you at the same time. Even the small ones do good damage, it was so stupid xd. They literally want you to play like Divinity for the majority of encounters then some kid comes out and says: "You don't have to use the D:OS mechanics if you don't like them" haha. That is what "Balanced encounters around the D:OS System" does to a D&D game. That's why the 5E ruleset had set HP for monsters too because the AC system exists and now we have it all Larianized.



I've largely been avoiding the Larian mechanics and playing as close to 5e as I can. So far the best way I've found to handle that fight is as a Light Cleric and waiting for the enemies surround my party before dropping Radiance of the Dawn. It did a pretty good job of clearing out most of the small adds. That's not to say that I don't think there need to be some adjustments to get things a little more balanced and friendly for other classes, because it was definitely a struggle when I tried it that way without being a Cleric. At this point Light Cleric is my favorite though.

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Originally Posted by DarkSeldarine
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Actually did the spider fight without using explodables and surface abuse ( Didn't even knock it down shooting all the webs ). It's not tailored to beat it with any class atm ( Specially Melee ), the dmg it does is dumb ( Has heavy damage area attack ) just like the HP scaling and has infinite teleports. The only way you can beat it is through hide cheese. Also check how many spiders they throw at you at the same time. Even the small ones do good damage, it was so stupid xd. They literally want you to play like Divinity for the majority of encounters then some kid comes out and says: "You don't have to use the D:OS mechanics if you don't like them" haha. That is what "Balanced encounters around the D:OS System" does to a D&D game. That's why the 5E ruleset had set HP for monsters too because the AC system exists and now we have it all Larianized.



I've largely been avoiding the Larian mechanics and playing as close to 5e as I can. So far the best way I've found to handle that fight is as a Light Cleric and waiting for the enemies surround my party before dropping Radiance of the Dawn. It did a pretty good job of clearing out most of the small adds. That's not to say that I don't think there need to be some adjustments to get things a little more balanced and friendly for other classes, because it was definitely a struggle when I tried it that way without being a Cleric. At this point Light Cleric is my favorite though.


Never said you can't "self cripple" yourself to try and "mimmick" a 5e experience, but that's the thing isn't it? I've been doing it myself and haven't reached a wall yet.

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Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Originally Posted by DarkSeldarine
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Actually did the spider fight without using explodables and surface abuse ( Didn't even knock it down shooting all the webs ). It's not tailored to beat it with any class atm ( Specially Melee ), the dmg it does is dumb ( Has heavy damage area attack ) just like the HP scaling and has infinite teleports. The only way you can beat it is through hide cheese. Also check how many spiders they throw at you at the same time. Even the small ones do good damage, it was so stupid xd. They literally want you to play like Divinity for the majority of encounters then some kid comes out and says: "You don't have to use the D:OS mechanics if you don't like them" haha. That is what "Balanced encounters around the D:OS System" does to a D&D game. That's why the 5E ruleset had set HP for monsters too because the AC system exists and now we have it all Larianized.



I've largely been avoiding the Larian mechanics and playing as close to 5e as I can. So far the best way I've found to handle that fight is as a Light Cleric and waiting for the enemies surround my party before dropping Radiance of the Dawn. It did a pretty good job of clearing out most of the small adds. That's not to say that I don't think there need to be some adjustments to get things a little more balanced and friendly for other classes, because it was definitely a struggle when I tried it that way without being a Cleric. At this point Light Cleric is my favorite though.


Never said you can't self cripple yourself to try and "mimmick" a 5e experience, but that's the thing isn't it?


Oh for sure. At this point trying to play as close to 5e as you can is definitely more of a challenge mode. Next to impossible if you don't at least abuse height as it currently stands, having disadvantage for every hit from low ground does not make for a long life.

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
That's also why disengage and hide absolutely have to be actions instead of bonus actions.

Other than Cunning Action for rogues

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Of course, I was assuming that as a given though as I want the game to be closer to 5e smile

Currently I use the D&D rebalance mod for my playthroughs and it makes a lot of difference. It feels a lot better than the default game and quite frankly, I couldn't imagine playing without it anymore. Now I just need a mod that gets monster HP and AC closer to the MM stats and I'd be happy.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by Kendaric
That's also why disengage and hide absolutely have to be actions instead of bonus actions.

Other than Cunning Action for rogues


It's actually more than that. Basically any class feature that grants Disengage as a Bonus Action is incredibly cheapened (and thus the entire class's/subclass's value) by everyone being able to do that. Two easy examples are Monk's Ki for Step of the Wind or taking the Mobile feat.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by dmwyvern
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Lower AC is necessary. In turn-based rpg misses aren't funny for most people.
It's frustrating when you miss every attack for several turns in a row, but if you lowered AC you have to increase HP or fight will be to easy.
You can't just add new enemies because no one wants to wait 10 minutes for next turn.
Changes in rules are necessary if Larian wants to sell a game for people unfamiliar with d&d.
You can't make game for few thousand people if you create AAA.




What exactly are you smoking? Few thousand people? Dungeons & Dragons is the single most valuable fantasy RPG IP in the world.

And those fans are reasonably looking for D&D 5e in this game, not D:OS3.


Do you really think at least 1/4 of the D&D fans will buy this game? Most of players will be casual.
Larian has to sell far more copies than last time if they don't want to end up like Obsidian.



Sales figures are not representative of quality. Millions of people buy into apple despite how poorly optimized, overpriced and outdated their tech is even ignoring their extremely corrupt business practices. DivOS and DivOS2 where paid for in full by kickstarter long before sales became an issue and they have already received funding for BG3 as well as 1 million sales of EA(very roughly 60m although I won't take a guess as to what part is net revenue).


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Even bloody Solasta has environmental effects, oneshots from falling rocks/hung cages, destruction of environment, destruction of tiles under the mobs and so on. Every other fight you can do that aplenty if you so desire.

Yes, that Solasta, our patron saint and savior of 5e video games. People are really too full of themselves - in the end video game that 100% follows RAW and is not flexible even a bit would make a shitty experience.

P.S. And for the love of god, I for sure hope Larian does not implement that true to spirit of 5e Smite, that one is annoying as fuck in Solasta. Pretty sure in 2k20 studios can figure a better way to do it than auto-pause mid swing with a popup every bloody time you attack.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Even bloody Solasta has environmental effects, oneshots from falling rocks/hung cages, destruction of environment, destruction of tiles under the mobs and so on. Every other fight you can do that aplenty if you so desire.

Yes, that Solasta, our patron saint and savior of 5e video games. People are really too full of themselves - in the end video game that 100% follows RAW and is not flexible even a bit would make a shitty experience.

P.S. And for the love of god, I for sure hope Larian does not implement that true to spirit of 5e Smite, that one is annoying as fuck in Solasta. Pretty sure in 2k20 studios can figure a better way to do it than auto-pause mid swing with a popup every bloody time you attack.


Absolutely false. On my second playthrough and there is definitely environmental interactivity, but not even *remotely* close to how overbearing it is in BG 3. Yes, some fights you can drop a chandelier/rock/equivalent on the enemy, but most fights you cannot. It makes that particular fight feel *special* when it happens, unlike BG 3 where it's literally expected at this point. Non-5e based surface effects are practically non-existent.

You are lying to troll, or just lying because you genuinely didn't play Solasta.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Even bloody Solasta has environmental effects, oneshots from falling rocks/hung cages, destruction of environment, destruction of tiles under the mobs and so on. Every other fight you can do that aplenty if you so desire.

Yes, that Solasta, our patron saint and savior of 5e video games. People are really too full of themselves - in the end video game that 100% follows RAW and is not flexible even a bit would make a shitty experience.

P.S. And for the love of god, I for sure hope Larian does not implement that true to spirit of 5e Smite, that one is annoying as fuck in Solasta. Pretty sure in 2k20 studios can figure a better way to do it than auto-pause mid swing with a popup every bloody time you attack.


...and again, the straw flies.

Nobody complains about environmental effects in general, you know that damn well. We criticize the gimmick laden way of how almost every encounter is set up, and the strange rule changes that seem arbitrary, unnecessarry, and deluding changes (bonus actions, height advantage, etc.) to the perfectly fine and balanced tactical framework that is D&D5e combat.

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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Even bloody Solasta has environmental effects, oneshots from falling rocks/hung cages, destruction of environment, destruction of tiles under the mobs and so on. Every other fight you can do that aplenty if you so desire.

Yes, that Solasta, our patron saint and savior of 5e video games. People are really too full of themselves - in the end video game that 100% follows RAW and is not flexible even a bit would make a shitty experience.

P.S. And for the love of god, I for sure hope Larian does not implement that true to spirit of 5e Smite, that one is annoying as fuck in Solasta. Pretty sure in 2k20 studios can figure a better way to do it than auto-pause mid swing with a popup every bloody time you attack.


...and again, the straw flies.

Nobody complains about environmental effects in general, you know that damn well. We criticize the gimmick laden way of how almost every encounter is set up, and the strange rule changes that seem arbitrary, unnecessarry, and deluding changes (bonus actions, height advantage, etc.) to the perfectly fine and balanced tactical framework that is D&D5e combat.


Which is something that can be tuned, whether it's excessive Barrelmancy or Firebolt. And yes what one of the guys above said that if I already start a frikkin' fire, then it should have actual effect - that is fine. What needs to be tuned is the overall ease at which you can do it now, which I hope they will do. But all in all environment effects themselves are not the devil, they are fine and fun if you can set this up proper with some coordinated effort.

But the reality of the matter environmental impact as a whole is fine, heck Solasta 2nd tavern story/tutorial teaches you to make use of it and somehow the game does not explode there at all whether you can oneshot a wolf 6 levels above you by destroying a tile under it or drop a cage on goblins in first mission or a stone on soraks same mission.

People really need to stop being so much anti-fun tight-asses, not everything ever should be the holy immutable RAW 5e, even Solasta devs understand it.

Last edited by Gaidax; 23/10/20 09:44 AM.
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Agree regarding many of the comments regarding BG3 being more Divinity v3 than AD&D, ad also the making use of the decades of successful gameplay and testing that makes up the AD&D collection(s). Obviously any Gaming house will try to make use of existing system engines from their past game systems as it makes financial sense to do so (waste not etc...). Unfortunately, D&D/AD&D franchise has been going for around fifty years and is still going, so there's a Vast level of experience and knowledge backing it up (like, do not mess with 'Star Trek').

Firstly, and most importantly, BG3 is EARLY ACCESS (two+ weeks in)! - still looks more final than early access when compared to other open world games...

My penny's worth:

- add two buttons to link all party members together and the other to separate them all. Leave the current mechanic for players to modify outside of those two);

- yes, showing a d20 animation does look nice, but it does sometimes appear a little - 'That's not random'?. Surely any foundation-layer program engine can be made to incorporate the other sized dice as and when applicable? It will make us feel better and warm and cosy, if not covered in blood and entrails.

- Although I personally love finding hundreds of these Bags (and chests) of Holding, it would be nice to see variations of how many items can actually fit in them - and that carrying three barrels, two chests, seven backpacks, a collection of sacks and weapons may impact fighting, walking, stealth, breathing and your arms and legs breaking.

- talking containers: please let us double-click an item with the container open and the item's moved over - and Stacked where applicable)

- PLEASE introduce some additional randomisation of stuff to find and forage, and encounters to spring on us. Although many old games like this simplistic, linear approach where, once ABC has been cleared out, you can completely forget it. Conversely, you then know that, though drops are basically random, once cleared then that is that. It also implies a basic fixed level of wealth. You can therefore forget buying enchanted weapons because you have to try to work out which trader you will need to go to/back to in getting that magic shield/tiara/box of goop that you have always yearned for

- Having that Starter area being relatively safe and not DIE DIE DIE like some other areas, having a couple of random creatures, traders, monsters, etc. of varying levels that can be interacted with, or beaten senseless by, will keep players checking back here and there. Time has proven that attention spans are limited. Relying on 'okay, I have played Good, now I will start again as Evil' is not always a great, modern formula to follow., especially if the storylines remain the same (and there is no present way to speed through dialogue (note spelling) )

Can anyone clarify for me why (what I am doing wrong), when my party (sneaking and hidden of course) spot a group of 'easy-pickings', move carefully about to cover all the victims and then attack, to suddenly only have one of the party able to attack? Even opponents completely out of sight of the first victim magically knows that someone (invisible) is standing in the bushes behind them and gets off a first strike?

As already said, 'Early-Access'.

And also, Thanks to Larian for the truly magnificent vistas and character layouts and customisations. Those poor 'gollum' actors in their unitards and visi-tabs have had to put up with a lot to make this truly amazing. Matching dialogue and lip-synchs also superb. Of course, now that the bar has been set so very high, you're going to have to start feeding and watering them for the rest of the game. Well done and a Huge thank you for the magical experience we have gotten in this early version.

PS: You do know that, like many other adventure/world games, Larian could make expansions to the final game modular (and paid for), as all those decades of AD&D have done so successfully and lucratively. All you have to do is get that pesky core game-engine purring like a goblin on a rack and you can just slap on module after module like a soap slapping on seasons.

PPS: Fix the #@&# 'dialogue stream not complete...' error that stops saving and quick-saving PLEASE! (the Duergar dialogue kicks it off) I have had to just roll back to a pre Myconid save and forget them for now. Most vexing.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
People really need to stop being so much anti-fun tight-asses, not everything ever should be the holy immutable RAW 5e, even Solasta devs understand it.


I don't think it's so much about anti fun as it is anti cheese... and, personally, I really draw a line when you balance and power levels of classes are concearned. Fact is, firebolt is no AOE spell, and it shouldn't be, not because it's not fun to light enemies ablaze with a basic bitch, "infinite" use spell, but because it's not what it's intended to do... there are other spells for that. Same goes for everybody being able to bonus action jump around, or shove each other of ledges. Sure, all those things are probably fun - if goofy as hell - but giving all characters those options not only waters down the tactical challenge, but also devalues much of the classes identity and balance. You know what I mean? Much of the appeal of D&D, heck, most pnp rules systems, really, is: Having a limited range of tools and finding out how to employ them to solve situations... not having "all" the tools and solving "all" situations, basically the same way.

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