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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


Last edited by Argonaut; 23/10/20 11:24 AM.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

Ah, nothing like reasoned debate.

Absolutely nothing like it.


Then enlighten me how on earth and heaven did you get the impression romance will be a large part of the game? Please, I am begging you.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


Because you didn't read the post you replied to?

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


Because you didn't read the post you replied to?

I read it twice, it dismissed the value of having 11 choices based on there being 3 outcomes completely missing how much depth and variety they add via characterization. Much like everything else in life the end is not the journey. I'll point it out for you.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.


Plot points VS Plot lines.

Last edited by Argonaut; 23/10/20 11:37 AM.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


True, but that requires actual writing skill... that's why consistent characterization has been replaced with surface level audience representation, in much of modern fiction writing.

Last edited by WarBaby2; 23/10/20 11:41 AM.
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It's not even audience representation WarBaby. Pick any conversation at random and you can most likely color code it for good choice, less good choice, sarcastic choice, bad choice.


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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

Last edited by sinogy; 23/10/20 11:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

Ah, nothing like reasoned debate.

Absolutely nothing like it.


Then enlighten me how on earth and heaven did you get the impression romance will be a large part of the game? Please, I am begging you.

Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.

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@Sadurian
Tbh I think that is more of a misdirection tactic by presenting something that will receive mass appeal as important and put it in the forefront and focus of discussion so as to avoid other issues that are move involved such as balance, mechanics or writing taking a prevalent spot. It is a very commonplace marketing tactic and should tell you a lot about the company in and of itself.


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The discussion of a mountain of text vs cinematic is a different one, though my 2cents for what it’s worth is that despite being if the older generation, I prefer cinematics and speech.

Witcher 3 showed how possible it can be if you’re willing to put the effort in. I’m not sure they alllll need to be as presented, I would be happy enough for more conversation points to be with text overhead like the banter you hear whilst walking around, rather than interrupting the flow of the game all the time, but that’s a preference.

The problem at the moment is the unfinished character animations for customs, where we react either bored, smug or aghast and due to no speech deliver very little nuance.

I think that’s where the block text approach benefits because it’s allll in your own head. The moment you apply cinematics and speech you have to pour a ton of effort in to not make it look cliche or clunky. We’re not there yet, but I’m hopeful Larian will bring that part up to scratch as development continues.

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Whether it is misdirection or not, the Romance and Relationships part of BG3 has been highly prominent in the advertising and promotions for the game. It would have been very easy to have seen this before EA launch and, if relationships in CRPGs are not only not your thing but so offensive as to warrant calling for it to be cut from the game, to have avoided it by not buying the game.

Last edited by Sadurian; 23/10/20 11:50 AM.
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Witcher 3 was not an RPG and Geralt is a fixed character in the universe with a fixed personality. Can you give an example of what you support where this is not the case?


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Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series

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[/quote]
Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.[/quote]

Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.

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Originally Posted by Azarielle
Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series

I don't care.

If you believe me to be wrong present evidence. If you want to have a circlejerk do it on a non public forum. If you hear best selling Authors and think twillight and 50 shades of grey and not Douglas Adams or Tolkien, CS Lewis, Leigh Bard etc that is a you problem and not a me problem. Read more fantasy and less drivel.

Last edited by Argonaut; 23/10/20 11:54 AM.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.

Your tone is getting increasingly offensive and I don't think you are here for reasoned debate.

Please feel free to continue in a more level manner later on, but I'm not involving myself in a ranting argument where we resort to name-calling and insinuation.

Last edited by Sadurian; 23/10/20 11:56 AM.
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This thread has become very toxic.

It was a reasonably polite debate until recently. Can people unstick their egos from the argument and start allowing others to hold contrary opinions? The alternative seems to be that a formerly interesting thread gets locked.

Last edited by Sadurian; 23/10/20 12:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by sinogy
You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

Be polite, please. If you wish to speak to people like that, you can do it somewhere else.


J'aime le fromage.
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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.

Your tone is getting increasingly offensive and I don't think you are here for reasoned debate.

Please feel free to continue in a more level manner later on, but I'm not involving myself in a ranting argument where we resort to name-calling and insinuation.



OOOOOH ofc you are offended. Ofc... Why bother trying to back your ideas with reason and logic or willing to change your ideas before clear as deay light reality? Why? Ofc. you are offended. Ofc. you become a victim. It is too easy to pass.

Every one gets offended nowadays for anything. Why not you? I am so sorry for being offensive. It was a crime against humanity and against snowflakes.

Last edited by sinogy; 23/10/20 12:03 PM.
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