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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by sinogy
You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

Be polite, please. If you wish to speak to people like that, you can do it somewhere else.


I don't see anything in my post not being polite.

Actually you are not polite for accusing me for not being polite for no reason!

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Azarielle
Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series

I don't care.

If you believe me to be wrong present evidence. If you want to have a circlejerk do it on a non public forum. If you hear best selling Authors and think twillight and 50 shades of grey and not Douglas Adams or Tolkien, CS Lewis, Leigh Bard etc that is a you problem and not a me problem. Read more fantasy and less drivel.


Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.



You assume everything yet you still act in denial. "I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence." right? is that so? First, you are no in shape or form to ask evidence because you either do not know what you wrote or are not honest.
Second, "That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it?" This is not a question. You don't ask questions by just putting question marks at end of your ideas and assumptions.
I am free to experience every possibility in a game I paid and complain about things I didn't like. Some people really care about the "immersion" in their games. Maybe you are not one of them but you can't expect any one to pass some aspects they don't like and pretend there is nothing to bother them.
Start thinking before trying to educate others.

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Originally Posted by Azarielle

Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?

And you first reaction was to pick drivel as opposed to authors of non drivel. This is a you problem.

Originally Posted by azarielle
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

Was it me that misrepresented myself to gain traction in an argument or you?
Please expand on your second point. Tell me how Douglas Adams, C.S Lewis or Tolkien are lacking.

Originally Posted by azarielle
I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.

Please provide examples. Opinions are not evidence.

C-

Originally Posted by robertthebard
I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand.

Anecdote is as good as anecdote. Objective fact is where it is at. So far you don't understand characterization or the different between a plot point or a plot line so please stop presenting your opinion as fact or authority.

D+

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I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.



You assume everything yet you still act in denial. "I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence." right? is that so?
"That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it?" This is not a question. You don't ask questions by just putting question marks at end of your ideas and assumptions.
I am free to experience every possibility in a game I paid and complain about things I didn't like. Some people really care about the "immersion" in their games. Maybe you are not one of them but you can't expect any one to pass some aspects they don't like and pretend there is nothing to bother them.
Start thinking before trying to educate others.

Now, I want you to look at that sentence that you pulled out of the quote, and look at how it ends. Your here, educating us on writing, but you don't know what a question mark (?) represents? How does that work, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]


Hah, yea, well... I've given up on trying to convey the merits of actual RPG's to the current generation of gamers some time ago. It's all about the spectacle and illusion choice with the "youngens". laugh

Seriously, though, it is possible to transport a "deep", complex, and varied story with "modern" means... they just have to be used effectively.

Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.

3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?


I think that we can all agree even if there is 3 or 4 "endings", it is the JOURNEY of the 11 <characterization> that makes the adventure worthwhile. Unless you are a speedrunner wink

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@mr_planescapist
Yes, this was my point. It is why I think writing in older games is better whereas writing for BG3 is poor at best. It is also why I think the excuse of EA is nonsense because characterization is something that needs to be fairly prevalent throughout the story, including it's beginning.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.


I don't think romance currently in BG3 comes even close to even the tackiest dating simulation games.
In fact its so barebones that it is incredibly cringe.

I have clocked about a 100 hours into this game and the romance lasted about 20 minutes total.
I don't mean fancy mocap sex scenes, or an interactive sex minigame. I am talking about dialogue scenes too... you know the whole point of companions in BG3 or D&D game in general.

Which you know is a huge deal in a dnd game.
I think your post is just blatantly misinformed and that doesn't seem like a good recipe for constructive discussion.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Azarielle

Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?

And you first reaction was to pick drivel as opposed to authors of non drivel. This is a you problem.

Originally Posted by azarielle
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

Was it me that represented myself to gain traction in an argument or you?
Please expand on your second point. Tell me how Douglas Adams, C.S Lewis or Tolkien are lacking.

Originally Posted by azarielle
I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.

Please provide examples. Opinions are not evidence.

C-

Originally Posted by robertthebard
I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand.

Anecdote is as good as anecdote. Objective fact is where it is at. So far you don't understand characterization or the different between a plot point or a plot line so please stop presenting your opinion as fact or authority.

D+


Oh wow now we're even getting grades?! On a gaming forum no less? I've seen many things (trust me -played WOW for years) but this is a first! Count me impressed!

Besides I have better things to do than wrote literary essays for you especially on something that should be self evident to a self proclaimed expert on literature.

Maybe you could write us - the unenlightened an essay on why Legolas is so infinitely better characterised than say Gale (and it's not even a fair competitions with only having Act1 available to go by).

And I agree this probably calls for a lockdown any time now.

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I would appreciate it if we could keep the thread about relationships, rather than the tit for tat that’s going on in here.

As for the W3 not being an rpg, I respectfully disagree. You still play a role, you decide how Geralt behaves, who he romances, what his build is and to a minor degree, his look. Yes, a lot is “predetermined” but it is still an RPG, and you could certainly argue it’s more of an rpg than taking any of the origin characters in BG3 (based on current evidence), other than the potential here in BG3 to decide which side of the story you are on. Yeah you can’t join the Wild Hunt and be a real evil ass, but you do decide Ciri’s fate.

But that’s really by the by and missing the point of what is possible in AAA cinematic driven conversational games. Mass Effect, Dragon Age etc...

Given also how BG3 is set-up, it will draw comparisons to the above titles, including W3 in terms of story and presentation. No BG3 isn’t open world, it has large areas, but still.

So far the romance options I have witnessed (and those certainly are not all - only the tiefling party after killing the goblins), seemed awkward. I have no issue with the guys coming on to my male half elf character, or a Githyanki needing to blow off some steam or Shadowheart preferring a more wine and chat approach, but all at the same time and all being Whitney about you having already chosen someone is just too much. I mean jeez, if that’s the case then let us have a whole party orgy if we truly play it right and then it’s win win on the options front.

Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.





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Good writing/storytelling and decisions that actually count is so rare these days that games with it extremely outstand.
Like, you know, Witcher 3...


DOS 2 is a good example for bad writing in my opinion. The story was so bad I didn't even care to follow it, "decisions" were worthless.
Wasteland 3 also falls in that category, retarded decisions all the way while logical solutions were left out; couldn't care much about the finale.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and Mia who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.

I agree here. The relationship you have with the NPCs, and how your choices affect them, is written through the game and yet there is no current way to determine how you are viewed except by picking up clues in conversation. In some games, the relationship you have with your NPC companions triggers events later in the game. In BG and BG2, for just one example, you could have a Companion storm off if your relationship with them went sour because you picked the wrong choice.

I don't think a hard numerical meter would fit, but some easily-checked indication as to whether the relationship was good, neutral or bad would be nice. Something you could check in camp, perhaps.

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I agree Riandor... maybe when selecting a dialogue or action we can see what the other character approves or disapproves of.

Also I mentioned this before, add more dialogue to the characters when we talk to them during the adventure. For example if I talk to Shadowheart in the middle of a Selunite ruin maybe I could see her giggle a little? Or Astarion in the middle of a swamp to complain?

And then let the player flirt with them there to raise the romance flag.
I currently have Gale as the highest approving character, i don't want him to keep hitting on my PC just because of that. There should be a specific action by the player to start this type of behavior.

Otherwise its just awkward and tiring.

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
I don't think romance currently in BG3 comes even close to even the tackiest dating simulation games.
In fact its so barebones that it is incredibly cringe.

I have clocked about a 100 hours into this game and the romance lasted about 20 minutes total.
I don't mean fancy mocap sex scenes, or an interactive sex minigame. I am talking about dialogue scenes too... you know the whole point of companions in BG3 or D&D game in general.

Which you know is a huge deal in a dnd game.
I think your post is just blatantly misinformed and that doesn't seem like a good recipe for constructive discussion.

I'm not talking solely about romance here, I'm talking about relationships and romance. You can probably play to the end of the entire game without choosing romance, but you cannot avoid relationships because they happen even if you don't actively acknowledge them.

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I’m hoping it’s an EA test thing, but it would be a little odd maybe if every character wants to romance you irrespective of sexuality. I mean perhaps that’s refreshing in some regards, but even in a fantasy setting I would expect to see preferences, even if it’s possible to override them if you put a lot of effort in.

Iirc you could do this with primarily straight characters in both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition, but you pushed for it.

Regardless it would just be slightly more realistic if certain characters were just ecstatic to have someone they can call a friend in the current situation. Trust is usually in short supply. That shouldn’t immediately mean drop clothes at the first opportunity, though in turn for some characters that would fit.

I.e. everyone behaving the same way at the same time with regards to dropping their pants is a little jarring Larian!! grin

More foreplay required ;-)

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Riandor
Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and Mia who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.

I agree here. The relationship you have with the NPCs, and how your choices affect them, is written through the game and yet there is no current way to determine how you are viewed except by picking up clues in conversation. In some games, the relationship you have with your NPC companions triggers events later in the game. In BG and BG2, for just one example, you could have a Companion storm off if your relationship with them went sour because you picked the wrong choice.

I don't think a hard numerical meter would fit, but some easily-checked indication as to whether the relationship was good, neutral or bad would be nice. Something you could check in camp, perhaps.


If you right click on a companion --> examine, then you can see how the view you... (neutral, medium, high, very high and so on....)

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Originally Posted by Riandor
I’m hoping it’s an EA test thing, but it would be a little odd maybe if every character wants to romance you irrespective of sexuality. I mean perhaps that’s refreshing in some regards, but even in a fantasy setting I would expect to see preferences, even if it’s possible to override them if you put a lot of effort in.

Iirc you could do this with primarily straight characters in both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition, but you pushed for it.

Regardless it would just be slightly more realistic if certain characters were just ecstatic to have someone they can call a friend in the current situation. Trust is usually in short supply. That shouldn’t immediately mean drop clothes at the first opportunity, though in turn for some characters that would fit.

I.e. everyone behaving the same way at the same time with regards to dropping their pants is a little jarring Larian!! grin

More foreplay required ;-)

Nope, barring mods, femshep could not romance Tali in ME 2, or 3, and the same was true in DA I. Someone provided some mods, but the romances had preferences, and stuck to them. BioWare did some changing in Andromeda, for Jaal, for sure, but other than that, they had preferences too, and frankly, I'm down with that. Everyone I know out here in the real world has preferences, and I'm not on that list for some of them, and I'm ok with that too.

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I agree, more interaction overall is certainly needed, but we should probably cut them some slack since we're in EA and even a lot of content that is already there isn't triggering correctly on many occasions.

As for sexuality - I really see no reason why I should be offended by anyone's sexual preference in game or otherwise (ofc excluding some extremes).

But maybe a workaround that would please most people here would be to have PC subtly express their preference in conversation or make first step while interacting with an NPC (I think Gale is a good example here).

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I see the sexuality thing as being the Companion you choose to sleep with just happens to be of the right sexuality. The meta-knowledge that any of the others would have also had that sexuality is not a problem to me, I just assume that they may or may not have been interested and concentrate on the one I've chosen. I can overlook conversation clues.

As for being uncomfortable or offended by being approached by the 'wrong' sexuality, I am a straight man who has been propositioned by more gay men than by straight women. It doesn't upset me in any way, and is actually quite refreshingly flattering.

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