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Originally Posted by Gaidax

Which is something that can be tuned, whether it's excessive Barrelmancy or Firebolt. And yes what one of the guys above said that if I already start a frikkin' fire, then it should have actual effect - that is fine. What needs to be tuned is the overall ease at which you can do it now, which I hope they will do. But all in all environment effects themselves are not the devil, they are fine and fun if you can set this up proper with some coordinated effort.

But the reality of the matter environmental impact as a whole is fine, heck Solasta 2nd tavern story/tutorial teaches you to make use of it and somehow the game does not explode there at all whether you can oneshot a wolf 6 levels above you by destroying a tile under it or drop a cage on goblins in first mission or a stone on soraks same mission.

People really need to stop being so much anti-fun tight-asses, not everything ever should be the holy immutable RAW 5e, even Solasta devs understand it.


Yeah, you're just trolling I have to imagine.

Solasta started from base 5e and introduced new elements as needed. They made sure their 5e mechanics were solid first.

BG 3 started from DoS 2 and added 5e elements only where absolutely required to seem like a D&D game, but ended up with just a DoS reskin. You're purposely ignoring the points being made (not saying no surfaces, saying follow the rules for them and otherwise use sparingly).

Seriously, how much of Solasta have you actually played? How many times did you have react to enemies throwing unavoidable damaging surfaces on you? How many times did enemies shove you off something to cause damage? And honestly, how many times did you kill an enemy via non-5e means (rock dropping on them) versus 5e means? Because right now, I know that amount is exceedingly minimal, especially since most environmental interactions aren't one-shots.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
BG 3 started from DoS 2 and added 5e elements only where absolutely required to seem like a D&D game, but ended up with just a DoS reskin. You're purposely ignoring the points being made (not saying no surfaces, saying follow the rules for them and otherwise use sparingly).


Pretty much what I said in not so many words... +1

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As an old school D&D player I'm not particularly wedded to 5e rules and understand that there has to be a little wriggle room to produce a functional video game based on a tabletop ruleset.

However, my feeling is that currently the game is a little too much like DoS (which I played and loved) and not enough like Baldur's Gate etc (which I also played and enjoyed - yes I'm old smile ). So toning down the surface effects etc, making the game a little less about scrambling to the top of every area asap when in combat and a little more 'DnD-ish' would be great. I thought that having early access was to get exactly this sort of feedback - which I have submitted through Larian's feedback page.

I t feels to me like BG3 is going to be a great game, it's already pretty cool in this version - but I think folks would like it more if it were less obviously derivative of Larian's earlier games.

Mostly I agree with the OP's post, with the exception of #3 - video games tend to have start out with a big set piece to get players involved. A bunch of people hanging round a bar discussing which nearby cave to go clean out is really going to cut it.

Oh yeah - and have less boxes and chests, who in their right mind is going to buy 3 chests, a put one or 2 small objects in each? That's not what you do with chests, that's what you do with little boxes! So less chests with more stuff please unless a subplot of the game is a bid for world domination by the Guild of Chest Builders.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Even bloody Solasta has environmental effects, oneshots from falling rocks/hung cages, destruction of environment, destruction of tiles under the mobs and so on. Every other fight you can do that aplenty if you so desire.

Yes, that Solasta, our patron saint and savior of 5e video games. People are really too full of themselves - in the end video game that 100% follows RAW and is not flexible even a bit would make a shitty experience.

P.S. And for the love of god, I for sure hope Larian does not implement that true to spirit of 5e Smite, that one is annoying as fuck in Solasta. Pretty sure in 2k20 studios can figure a better way to do it than auto-pause mid swing with a popup every bloody time you attack.


Absolutely false. On my second playthrough and there is definitely environmental interactivity, but not even *remotely* close to how overbearing it is in BG 3. Yes, some fights you can drop a chandelier/rock/equivalent on the enemy, but most fights you cannot. It makes that particular fight feel *special* when it happens, unlike BG 3 where it's literally expected at this point. Non-5e based surface effects are practically non-existent.

You are lying to troll, or just lying because you genuinely didn't play Solasta.

Damn, where's the big rock I can drop on the Matriarch, I haven't seen one in there yet. So it's "I'm going to counter your perceived hyperbole with hyperbole of my own"?

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@robertthebard
You learn the difference between a plot line and a plot point yet to be schooling people on hyperbole?


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
[quote=Gaidax]
...

Solasta started from base 5e and introduced new elements as needed. They made sure their 5e mechanics were solid first.

BG 3 started from DoS 2 and added 5e elements only where absolutely required to seem like a D&D game, but ended up with just a DoS reskin. You're purposely ignoring the points being made (not saying no surfaces, saying follow the rules for them and otherwise use sparingly).
...


I have seen this argument so many times, that BG3 is somehow DOS3 in disguise, and is far more like DOS than 5E. No offense, but this is just wrong. I honestly don't see how you can play BG3 and come away with the idea that it's a DoS reskin that only added 5E mechanics where "absolutely required."

The entire system of the game is 5E. The classes are 5E, the skills are 5E, the abilities are 5E, the combat system is 5E, the action economy is 5E, the races are 5E. Just to illustrate the differences between DoS and 5E further...

DoS uses an action point system in combat, BG3 and 5E use action/bonus action/move.
DoS has a classless skill based system for abilities, BG3 and 5E use classes and levels.
DoS has a stat system where you increase stats every time you level, BG3 and 5E have stats largely set at character creation, that increase only on levels which are mulitples of 4.
DoS used a percentile chance to hit system, BG3 and 5E use a D20 with attack bonus and AC, or saving throws.

All of these things are foundational system layer aspects of the game. Just because both DoS and BG3 have surface effects doesn't make BG3 not a D&D game...it's more like a D&D game with a few house rules. Also...D&D has surface effects anyway.

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Just to give you an idea of how absurd Firebolt is right now, especially with the changes to AC and health on enemies, I made a half elf Fighter with High Elf ancestry. In spite of dumping INT, my Fire Bolt cantrip is my most reliable source of ranged damage.

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Originally Posted by Creslin321
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
[quote=Gaidax]
...

Solasta started from base 5e and introduced new elements as needed. They made sure their 5e mechanics were solid first.

BG 3 started from DoS 2 and added 5e elements only where absolutely required to seem like a D&D game, but ended up with just a DoS reskin. You're purposely ignoring the points being made (not saying no surfaces, saying follow the rules for them and otherwise use sparingly).
...


I have seen this argument so many times, that BG3 is somehow DOS3 in disguise, and is far more like DOS than 5E. No offense, but this is just wrong. I honestly don't see how you can play BG3 and come away with the idea that it's a DoS reskin that only added 5E mechanics where "absolutely required."

The entire system of the game is 5E. The classes are 5E, the skills are 5E, the abilities are 5E, the combat system is 5E, the action economy is 5E, the races are 5E. Just to illustrate the differences between DoS and 5E further...

DoS uses an action point system in combat, BG3 and 5E use action/bonus action/move.
DoS has a classless skill based system for abilities, BG3 and 5E use classes and levels.
DoS has a stat system where you increase stats every time you level, BG3 and 5E have stats largely set at character creation, that increase only on levels which are mulitples of 4.
DoS used a percentile chance to hit system, BG3 and 5E use a D20 with attack bonus and AC, or saving throws.

All of these things are foundational system layer aspects of the game. Just because both DoS and BG3 have surface effects doesn't make BG3 not a D&D game...it's more like a D&D game with a few house rules. Also...D&D has surface effects anyway.


+ Spell slots instead of cool downs
+ Roll to hit against armour class instead of destroying armour
+ Saving throws against status effects instead of protection by armour
+ No weapon and armour levelling

Not having to keep your equipment up to date is a massive difference.

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Originally Posted by Paimon
Just to give you an idea of how absurd Firebolt is right now, especially with the changes to AC and health on enemies, I made a half elf Fighter with High Elf ancestry. In spite of dumping INT, my Fire Bolt cantrip is my most reliable source of ranged damage.

Ok? Ranged physical damage is based on your Dex and modifier. What are those scores?

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It's more to do with the fact that I can damage things even when I get a critical miss.

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Originally Posted by Paimon
It's more to do with the fact that I can damage things even when I get a critical miss.

That is the weirdest part about firebolt right now. It is essentially 100% success rate. IMO they should change it to only create a surface when ground targeted, in which case it would not deal direct damage or burn anyone until they walk on it

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+1 for the guy/girl who invented the term "barrelmancy" for Larians combatsystem-essentials.

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Unfortunately, I fear they're not looking at how their changes reverberate through the system. The worst offender is handing out advantage like candy, with no resource cost. A host of abilities and spells offer the player or their team-mates advantage at some resource cost. The HP bloat and ready made surfaces, some produced by cantrips no less, trivializes anything that does damage. They are trivializing the benefits one gets from leveling up. In the end, their removing emphasis of a team of adventures, all with weaknesses and strengths, using their hard earned abilities to overcome challenges. And what do we get return? ""Oh, wow I can set your area effect on fire!" You know the one you wasted a spell slot on. Which is just as well, since if the area/spell actually landed, why would it matter that your team-mates would have advantage to hit due to blinding, enwebbing, entangling, or knocking prone their foe. All your team-mate needs to due is walk behind the target to get advantage. Not even flanking is in the core rules, guess what, this is is why.

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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Unfortunately, I fear they're not looking at how their changes reverberate through the system. The worst offender is handing out advantage like candy, with no resource cost. A host of abilities and spells offer the player or their team-mates advantage at some resource cost. The HP bloat and ready made surfaces, some produced by cantrips no less, trivializes anything that does damage. They are trivializing the benefits one gets from leveling up. In the end, their removing emphasis of a team of adventures, all with weaknesses and strengths, using their hard earned abilities to overcome challenges. And what do we get return? ""Oh, wow I can set your area effect on fire!" You know the one you wasted a spell slot on. Which is just as well, since if the area/spell actually landed, why would it matter that your team-mates would have advantage to hit due to blinding, enwebbing, entangling, or knocking prone their foe. All your team-mate needs to due is walk behind the target to get advantage. Not even flanking is in the core rules, guess what, this is is why.


Sometimes I ask myself if we are underestimating Larian comprehension of the rules and the impact any change can possibly snowball through the entire game and this early access thing is just supposed to be for the player to evaluate the story. Then I wake up and remember how DOS EA was close to full release mechanicallywise and I realize I’m living in a nightmare.

I used to hate people saying that BG3 = DOS3 due to the turn based system. After all, 5e works better in that scenario.
Now I’ve teamed with those folks. How unfortunate!

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Originally Posted by Ignatius
Unfortunately, I fear they're not looking at how their changes reverberate through the system. The worst offender is handing out advantage like candy, with no resource cost. A host of abilities and spells offer the player or their team-mates advantage at some resource cost. The HP bloat and ready made surfaces, some produced by cantrips no less, trivializes anything that does damage. They are trivializing the benefits one gets from leveling up. In the end, their removing emphasis of a team of adventures, all with weaknesses and strengths, using their hard earned abilities to overcome challenges. And what do we get return? ""Oh, wow I can set your area effect on fire!" You know the one you wasted a spell slot on. Which is just as well, since if the area/spell actually landed, why would it matter that your team-mates would have advantage to hit due to blinding, enwebbing, entangling, or knocking prone their foe. All your team-mate needs to due is walk behind the target to get advantage. Not even flanking is in the core rules, guess what, this is is why.


HP bloat is mainly for goblins and they've reduced AC, the most likely cause of this change is to scale goblins somewhat along with giving them consumables to make the fight challenging and somewhat easy to tune (can always reduce the hp, reduce consumable usage) while not drastically increasing round time by adding goblins.

The minos in the Underdark do not have HP bloat for example, so it's mainly the goblins.

Also, you can keep talking about cantrips and surfaces as though they're superior to everything in the arsenal except the math doesn't quite work out that way; hex + scorching ray, MM with or without the necklace at level 2, full round of attacks from either a ranger or a thief etc.

And these things tend to come with levels, so I have no idea why you're being such a bitch about it. Your argument would be stronger if you stated it diminishes the gap between levels and then you would need to prove it by stating how much.

The weaknesses and strengths are very much apparent even in the current flawed system; clerics are superior at utility, rogues at maneuvering and at burst damage, fighters for general damage / shoving lol and some cc (battlemaster), wizards for area and guaranteed damage, and warlocks for ranged damage and minimal utility, and rangers for solid damage and horde control / single target specialization.

So yeah, you can get advantage pretty easily but so can your opponents, it still comes down to better positioning and when all things are even usage of resources.

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Originally Posted by Limz

So yeah, you can get advantage pretty easily but so can your opponents, it still comes down to better positioning and when all things are even usage of resources.


Still you fail to see the impact of dishing advantage in the overall weight of some classes that are highly dependent of it as Barbarians with reckless attack. Advantage is gold in DnD5e. Advantage in BG3 is a must. See the difference?

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Limz

So yeah, you can get advantage pretty easily but so can your opponents, it still comes down to better positioning and when all things are even usage of resources.


Still you fail to see the impact of dishing advantage in the overall weight of some classes that are highly dependent of it as Barbarians with reckless attack. Advantage is gold in DnD5e. Advantage in BG3 is a must. See the difference?


The class feature, if implemented as is, would have relatively diminished returns just like rogues see diminishing returns on having bonus actions. You still have a net gain (but by how much) for having another source of advantage for when you can't flank for the free backstab or for when there's a height difference that cannot be overcome.

You're correct in the weight of classes being shifted, but that primarily depends on how the class is implemented and how much in the grand scheme of things. Having the weight shifted is meaningless without taking a look at the context as a whole. The 5e system is not that fragile.

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So my take, in response to each point

1.I disagree here, I think the ground effects can make for a unique 5e homebrew experience. They just need to stick tighter to the underlying conceptual reasoning behind some of the 5e rules. The fire surface needs an interaction with Dex saves, like every other surface. Essentially they need to apply the rules of Fireball to fire surface and it will feel more like D&D, there is no dice roll to hit you and there is no save roll to mitigate it. The problem with fire surfaces is that they are functionally magic missiles. I have no issues with the other surfaces although knock prone on a D8 does feel pretty strong in the cantrip department

2. As far as I understand, Goblins are treated as humanoids and just have more health based on level. Goblins are a playable race in 5e, so it makes sense for them to scale in HP in the same way as the players. I really have no knowledge about AC changes, I do agree with not messing with AC too much as the game is balanced entirely around the AC and save rolls. I feel like what affects this the most is the "Altitude" system that they have used to replace 5e's "Cover" system. Elevation is basically +5 to hit rolls and -5 to theirs... or something absurd like that. They need Elevation to be balanced in the exact same way as Cover was. "Elevation is the new Cover" and it needs to be no stronger than full cover. With the capacity feats to resolve the drawback (spell sniper / sharpshooter were the SRD 5 resolutions to enemy cover bonuses)

3. Yea... that is kind of only something that veteran D&D players are going to feel. "Oh, the very first thing that you encounter AT ALL... is an Intellect Devourer... yea, this is totally like real D&D". I kinda of disagree on your sentiment here, I understand that the Devil fighting the mindflayer is super high HP and players can potentially battle this beast at level 1 (and surprisingly the AI isnt a jerk and just attack the lowest HP character, so he lets you kill him). However, if you linger too long those Cambions will just clean you up, they do push the urgency in that department.

4. Yes.

5. Yes. Larian Studios, I'm gonna say it like this, I like the surfaces.... I dont like the combat being entirely about them in my D&D game. They are a nice touch if thats all they are... a touch. The barrels are redonkulously over tuned, the fire surface itself as I said earlier is a magic missile hit (100% hit chance) AND too many goblins are yoking around this unavoidable source of damage. Elevation should be tuned to "Half-cover" and "Full cover" values, it feels like much more than that right now. The cover system was additive, the elevation system 'feels' multiplicative, though I could be wrong. The "Full Elevation" bonus needs to be a fairly large elevation gap... Using the Windmill fight as a guage... the top of the rock formation should be "Half bonus" and the Windmill, if you climb up the ladder, should be "Full Bonus"

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Originally Posted by Kendaric
Of course, I was assuming that as a given though as I want the game to be closer to 5e smile

Currently I use the D&D rebalance mod for my playthroughs and it makes a lot of difference. It feels a lot better than the default game and quite frankly, I couldn't imagine playing without it anymore. Now I just need a mod that gets monster HP and AC closer to the MM stats and I'd be happy.


Mods are wonderful but I don't want BG3 to become like a Bethesda game where they expect the modders to fix the game. I would rather have Larian follow the 5e ruleset and modders are adding wacky / crazy house rules.

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Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by Ignatius
Unfortunately, I fear they're not looking at how their changes reverberate through the system. The worst offender is handing out advantage like candy, with no resource cost. A host of abilities and spells offer the player or their team-mates advantage at some resource cost. The HP bloat and ready made surfaces, some produced by cantrips no less, trivializes anything that does damage. They are trivializing the benefits one gets from leveling up. In the end, their removing emphasis of a team of adventures, all with weaknesses and strengths, using their hard earned abilities to overcome challenges. And what do we get return? ""Oh, wow I can set your area effect on fire!" You know the one you wasted a spell slot on. Which is just as well, since if the area/spell actually landed, why would it matter that your team-mates would have advantage to hit due to blinding, enwebbing, entangling, or knocking prone their foe. All your team-mate needs to due is walk behind the target to get advantage. Not even flanking is in the core rules, guess what, this is is why.


HP bloat is mainly for goblins and they've reduced AC, the most likely cause of this change is to scale goblins somewhat along with giving them consumables to make the fight challenging and somewhat easy to tune (can always reduce the hp, reduce consumable usage) while not drastically increasing round time by adding goblins.

The minos in the Underdark do not have HP bloat for example, so it's mainly the goblins.

Also, you can keep talking about cantrips and surfaces as though they're superior to everything in the arsenal except the math doesn't quite work out that way; hex + scorching ray, MM with or without the necklace at level 2, full round of attacks from either a ranger or a thief etc.

And these things tend to come with levels, so I have no idea why you're being such a bitch about it. Your argument would be stronger if you stated it diminishes the gap between levels and then you would need to prove it by stating how much.

The weaknesses and strengths are very much apparent even in the current flawed system; clerics are superior at utility, rogues at maneuvering and at burst damage, fighters for general damage / shoving lol and some cc (battlemaster), wizards for area and guaranteed damage, and warlocks for ranged damage and minimal utility, and rangers for solid damage and horde control / single target specialization.

So yeah, you can get advantage pretty easily but so can your opponents, it still comes down to better positioning and when all things are even usage of resources.


Nope, AI is not smart enough and I never see enemy backstab my characters, if they do so, I will hate this mechanism even more.

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