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Originally Posted by Tuco

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


Perhaps. On the other hand, Larian doesn't want to be restricted by 5e rules while lots of fans just want a 5e experience. I feel like there is no perfect middle ground. I think they should allow some magnitude of adjustability. That, it will be up to mods.

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Imo the hp bloat coupled with the gamey abilities make just about every fight in thr underdark play out as if you are fighting a bunch of superheroes.

For example: Hook horrors can do over 20meter jumps that do aoe damage, shockwaves, have multi attack. And you fight 4 of them. You can beat it. Thats not the point. The point is you arent fighting hook horrors.

I saw multi attacking minotaurs move 200 feet in 1 turn, a beholder fly an entire screen away and using rays he shouldnt have.

If you want to use the dnd license then use it, but dont dress monsters up as classic dnd monsters and give them all new abilities....

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Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


As long as you miss one 80% hitchance after the other, there is an issue with that.
I have the feeling my chars hit more often, when the chance is 20% than 80%. But in total they hit much less than the hit chances would imply, as like the displayed chance is just wrong. That feels so weird.


I see some people claim real hit chance is lower than displayed. I haven't felt like that at all. I think you're either unlucky or notice misses more easily than hits. After all, a few people saying the RNG seems off out of everyone doesn't really indicate it's broken. Every game with heavy RNG elements have people claiming the odds are worse than shown

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This change isn't the biggest deal to me, but the 'fix' they implement is just a bad choice. You break - once again - the balance of the system to achieve a 'feeling' without actually any meaning to it.

D&D doesn't have injury effects so a character is as effective with 1 hp as with 1000, meaning that this change actually just reduced the chance to kill off enemies in one round increasing the chance that you need to attack them several times. So instead of missing the first round and maybe hitting and killing it the next round because of their low hp value, now you need to manage to hit twice as your damage output isn't scaled to deal with bloated hp, while the enemy is going to be still as strong as it was before. Not seeing that this is going to cause balancing issues through out the whole game that is as complex as D&D in its mechanics is baffling.


I'm definitely in the camp of making more interesting animations for misses instead of just piling up stats. And yes, I'm aware its a lot more work for animations and code, but the result is definitely better than just giving game designers the sense that they 'fixed' someone else's system by introducing changes that break other things.

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Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


As long as you miss one 80% hitchance after the other, there is an issue with that.
I have the feeling my chars hit more often, when the chance is 20% than 80%. But in total they hit much less than the hit chances would imply, as like the displayed chance is just wrong. That feels so weird.


I see some people claim real hit chance is lower than displayed. I haven't felt like that at all. I think you're either unlucky or notice misses more easily than hits. After all, a few people saying the RNG seems off out of everyone doesn't really indicate it's broken. Every game with heavy RNG elements have people claiming the odds are worse than shown

Yeah theres actually a eord for that. Dont recall which one but basicly our brains renember the times we fail far more then the times that we succeed.

I always point out the combat log at the buttom right. You can click on the arrow and it expands a log so you can see what dice results were rolled. If advantage or disadvantage was in play and if damage is reduced because if resistance its mentioned there as well!

That said ive had sessions at the table where I couldnt hit a lowly goblin if my life depended on it and I instant-gibbed the boss with a single hit. Im seeing the same zany randomness back in the game. If anything, its to realistic 😂

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
That Larian are too set in their ways how things "are done" and can only do things one way. Missing 5 times in a row in NWN: EE still feels better than chipping away at 2000 armor in Divinity.


I strongly agree. Also, on NWN1 on OC chapter 1, when I got fireball, I OHKilled a lot of enemies with a single fireball cast. That was so dope. Those who survived the reflex save was ok.

Originally Posted by denhonator
(...)This seems exactly the game where players should be given a lot of control over how things work. Of course it's a nightmare to balance everything if everything can be adjusted, but let's say there are certain presets for the most popular settings and they test that each of those are enjoyable. Then, players can adjust it further to their liking


I honestly don't care. All masterpiece RPG's are unbalanced and in a low ac environment, some builds are better, in a high ac, others are better, everything in D&D is situational and will be with more options.

Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Tuco

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


Perhaps. On the other hand, Larian doesn't want to be restricted by 5e rules while lots of fans just want a 5e experience. I feel like there is no perfect middle ground. I think they should allow some magnitude of adjustability. That, it will be up to mods.


Yep. I can bet that the most popular mod when modding tools become available will fix this ludicrous HP bloat.


-------------------------


I only played 3e with a group once and having the DM describing how a crit managed to hit on enemy neck, he is bleeding a lot and heavily injured was so dope. on P&P, you know that a single crit can flip the table in your on in your enemy favor and make the combat fells more risky is a huge part of the appeal. I get that Larian needs to please Greeks(D&D fans) and Trojans(DOS2 fans) but making things optional will be a perfect middle ground. Being able to one shot an goblin small army when you get a AoE spell which was a trouble before was also part of the appeal of spell circles on almost every game with tier based spell progression.

Larian don't get it since they are too used to DOS2 and probably most people there din't even played BG1/2...

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 24/10/20 11:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by denhonator

I feel like they have to make adjustable settings:
- Increased HP on/off
- Lowered AC on/off
- Other debated aspects that could just be toggled

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


It will probably be the case cause Larian stated they will add difficulty modes. So there will be story, classic and tactical. And in tactical, they will have lots of HPs and their normal AC I guess.

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.

Last edited by Nyanko; 24/10/20 11:15 AM.
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I'd rather have multiple misses knowing this will get better at higher levels than this Carnival of Surface Retardedness and HP Bloat we have now.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.


HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!

That is the problem.

I've soloed BG2EE:SoA on Legacy of Bhaal and don't wanna play not cuz is too hard but cuz is a tedium. in many places.

Since Richard Garriott first RPG, part of the appeal of RPG's is power fantasy. I own a 175 lbf crossbow and love practice shooting with it. Now imagine the power to have a eldritch at will crossbow with unlimited ammo and no reload required, is even cooler than a IRL crossbow and that is Eldritch Blast(and BTW crossbow bolts are expensive, you can reuse a lot but eventually they break). If you make even low lv goblins able to sustain multiple shots of this eldritch crossbow, you kill the fantasy of having a cool power. Every game which tier based spell progression appeals to that power fantasy. It is not only for D&D games, Gothic, Ultima and tons of RPG's... And the situation will be worse when we get fireballs and AoE spells. They will fell weak if they can't kill low level goblins like they could in every D&D game.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 24/10/20 11:33 AM.
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Just to clarify: have we determined which monsters are affected by this HP bloat? From what I remember from my playthroughs is that Bugbears, Ogres , Minotaurs had same HP as in Monster Manual.

They have upped goblin's HP for sure. But.. are there more?

It would make this discussion more precise.

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Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I'd rather have multiple misses knowing this will get better at higher levels than this Carnival of Surface Retardedness and HP Bloat we have now.


Definitely agree with that. Missing in combat often is part of the early levels after all, but I guess most people just want to feel like superheroes at level 1 unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Xantyr
Just to clarify: have we determined which monsters are affected by this HP bloat? From what I remember from my playthroughs is that Bugbears, Ogres , Minotaurs had same HP as in Monster Manual.

They have upped goblin's HP for sure. But.. are there more?

It would make this discussion more precise.


Spiders too. But considering how goblins are prevelant, "just goblins" is like "just 40% of enemies on act 1/EA".

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.


HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!

That is the problem.

I've soloed BG2EE:SoA on Legacy of Bhaal and don't wanna play not cuz is too hard but cuz is a tedium. in many places.

Since Richard Garriott first RPG, part of the appeal of RPG's is power fantasy. I own a 175 lbf crossbow and love practice shooting with it. Now imagine the power to have a eldritch at will crossbow with unlimited ammo and no reload required, is even cooler than a IRL crossbow and that is Eldritch Blast(and BTW crossbow bolts are expensive, you can reuse a lot but eventually they break). If you make even low lv goblins able to sustain multiple shots of this eldritch crossbow, you kill the fantasy of having a cool power. Every game which tier based spell progression appeals to that power fantasy. It is not only for D&D games, Gothic, Ultima and tons of RPG's... And the situation will be worse when we get fireballs and AoE spells. They will fell weak if they can't kill low level goblins like they could in every D&D game.


Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever. So I am wondering if it's more a matter of adapting to a new type of combat which has nothing to compare with BG1 & 2 or to have it easier because some players think they know how to beat the game cause they were doing good in previous installments.

It's easier I think for a developer to explain well its combat system rather than changing it into a list of impossible compromises because it tries to please a very broad type of gamers. And maybe Larian lacks explaining its game mechanics in that sense. Which in itself is not good.

Last edited by Nyanko; 24/10/20 11:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!


It does make it harder. Hard and tedius aren't mutually exclusive. Let's say some enemy is highly dangerous, but low HP. You could possibly one shot it and be fine.

Now the enemy has more HP and you can't one shot it, and you need to find a way to survive its turn because you can't kill it before that.

It's an additional challenge that requires strategy to beat. Doesn't mean it can't also feel tedius. Maybe it's not the best way to add difficulty. Maybe we should discuss alternative methods of increasing difficulty if more HP is something people don't wanna see.

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Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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IIRC hookhorrors actually had a little less hp but they got some insame abilities they shouldnt have. They should have 75hp. They do normally have multi attack to attack twice though

Spectator should have 39 hp, is medium not large and are generally friendly creatures.

Bullete should have 94hp. Dont recall what it actually has ingame. Its aoe jump is actually a feature of the bulette but not of other creatures. It also has a ranged attack it shouldnt have.

Minotaurs have multi attack, a jump aoe attack and a shockwave ability they shouldnt have. Hp should be 76. Minotaurs do have a special charge but they need to move a certain distance before they can use that ability.

And before people acuse me of beeing a dnd purist or something, an extra ability here or there is fine. But do it in moderation. Giving Minotaurs a melee cleave for example would make sense and doesent sound to broken.

Giving them multi attack and an aoe jump gives them 3 attacks. One which can also knock you down if you fail a str test. They are balanced around having 1 attack with the greataxe or a running gore attack. Using their reckless ability to gain advantage but also granting it to attacks against them.

They hit hard but you csn hit them easily as well. Currently they not only hit hard, their movement is somany times more then ut should be thst its basicly a joke...

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Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.




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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.

Larian did both though. Thats why its an issue

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.




Yeah that's what I said. I don't know much about designing turn based combat, but intuitively I think it is better the have few strong enemies than many week ones. What I can say for sure is that I enjoyed the battles with the strong few monsters much more than when I had to fight hordes of weaker ones


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.

Larian did both though. Thats why its an issue


Not counting fighting with whole goblin's camp i didn't see any fighting too many enemies.



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