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#715138 24/10/20 12:52 PM
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Vhaldez Offline OP
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TL;DR so you can skip my hot take below:


- Kagha being a demagogue with easy answers for the refugee question in the grove makes no sense, Olodan only complicates this further.
- "Siding with" her is a thankless job that dips into comic book villainy as you massacre the refugees singlehandedly for her.

- To fix this, remove the child murdering scene when you first meet her
- Remove all reference to the refugees being "just about to leave" and involve the druids in the cleansing of the grove somehow
- Said cleansing should be expulsion of the Tieflings without heed of consequence, not ethnic cleansing as it is right now lol
- Maybe make Kagha a bit less of a cold bitch to the player when "siding with" her.


Now for some unorganised rambling on why Kagha is a ridiculous character;

The main questline for Act 1 revolves around helping or hindering these Tiefling refugees in the druid grove of Silvanus. They are opposed by the grove's interim leader who is secretly working with a druid hate group to make their circle xenophobic isolationists and possibly genocide the helpless refugees. As you walk into this situation you find this interim leader on the cusp of imprisoning a child and possibly witness it being murdered. Only the circle's second in command seems to take offense to this, even the pedestrian servants grumble on how this is a comeuppance for a long period of grievances they have had with these unwelcome outsiders. If you go back to the outer area there is a woman sending secret messages to the circle's actual leader, a swole chad bear-man-elf with perfect intentions and not a hint of xenophobia. This woman tells you that she is basically the circle's one person resistance movement and that the interim leader is druid Hitler who has swayed everyone but two people to her hateful cause.

The player is not nescessarily incentivised to act on the Tieflings' behalf in this situation and some of your companions even seem to prefer you siding with the evil druids (although all of them are of the opinion that WENEEDAHEALER-...). If you decide to do this though, prepare to be surprised about how nobody will be thankful for your help. Kagha, the interim druid leader, hates you the moment you step into her sanctum. All she does is sneer at you. She then orders you to go "deal with" the Tiefling leader, which can spiral into your party inciting a race war against them. Expect no help from the druids here if you even get to this point. When I tried it, I basically had to admit to Kagha that I am a racist and wanted to see hellspawn removed from this plane of existence. When I said it was none of my concern, Kghga blew me off and the opportunity I had to slaughter an entire people was gone. From what I have read on the forums the outcome you get when you manage to go through with this is you taking on the entire refugee camp alone, Kagha sealing off the grove forever and prompty telling you to sod off.

If you happen to be a rational human being and ignore the path I described in the second paragraph you will find that not only have the Tieflings done nothing wrong, they have a very easy and concrete way out of the druids' hair forever. All they need is a clear road to Baldur's Gate and they will no longer be a problem. Zevlor, the Tiefling leader, even comically shouts out that they were "getting ready to LEAVE!" if the goblins end up attacking the grove in full force. While this is happening the druids do absolutely nothing and should you persevere in your final standoff with the goblin raid or assassinate their leaders beforehand Kagha will even be promptly murdered for her child killing by the child's vengeful parents. In fact, there are three scenarios related to that outcome; Either Kagha is fully exposed as a druid KKK member and you talk her into siding against her Grand Wizard which leads to her being remorseful when Halsin (the real leader of the circle) returns and demotes her or you never expose her and she says almost to Halsin's face that she and Olodan the hatemongress will coup the grove in his absence anyway.

Now, ignoring the matter of the real-world political implications of a xenophobic populist rallying ignorant people against harmless refugees for a moment (because God knows we want to stay clear of that) the problem is that there really is no moral choice here. Kagha is absurdly in the wrong and the Tieflings are absurdly innocent. Making the latter more guilty is probably not going to work. Zevlor and all the Tiefling side characters are falling over themselves to prove how whimsical and charming they are (there is a three minute cinematic performance of a song with a montage of playing Tiefling children in there somewhere) and band-aid fixing that by having a Tiefling John Doe slap a druid's ass or something would be painfully artificial. I hope others in this threat can provide more elegant solutions, but as it stands right now I think cutting Kagha altogether would be the right thing to do. Leave the inexperienced Rath as the leader of the grove who is then struggling to accomodate for the refugees' needs, which leads to both parties realising that the grove is not going to sustain them for much longer. If you really want to salvage her character I would start by cutting the child murder scene, making her a little more friendly with the player (maybe even have her be knowledgeable about the tadpole like Halsin?) and have her final solution involve kicking the Tieflings out without heed of consequence instead of kicking them into the next life. The wholesale slaughter of those people, children and all, just has to go.

Last edited by Vhaldez; 24/10/20 06:46 PM. Reason: Spelled Kagha wrong everywhere lol
Vhaldez #715170 24/10/20 01:29 PM
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I think she is a good character to have. It gives players someone to hate early on and gets people more emotionally invested in the situation. Also, Tieflings are treated like crap in most places, druid grove is a good introduction to this.

She can be killed without speaking to her at all and this method keeps the Tieflings safe (she doesn't run out to kill them). Not sure if you have to kill Nettie first or not.

For people that have a hard time with the Kagha introduction, perhaps there should be an autosave when you enter that area.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez

The player is not nescessarily incentivised to act on the Tieflings' behalf in this situation

I actually found more incentive to act on their behalf simply because of what happened. If the situation was just a simple bit of dislike between the two groups then I would have disregarded it entirely and continued looking for a cure. Would help them with the goblins later so I was not at risk of endangering everyone.

Zarna #715190 24/10/20 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Zarna
I think she is a good character to have. It gives players someone to hate early on and gets people more emotionally invested in the situation. Also, Tieflings are treated like crap in most places, druid grove is a good introduction to this.


My point is that Kagha and her followers are mad about something they could eaily solve themselves but have chosen to be xenophobic assholes for a reason the player does not understand. I doubt you are supposed to hate Kahga to the level where siding with her is just irrational, right?

Originally Posted by Zarna

I actually found more incentive to act on their behalf simply because of what happened. If the situation was just a simple bit of dislike between the two groups then I would have disregarded it entirely and continued looking for a cure. Would help them with the goblins later so I was not at risk of endangering everyone.


The Tieflings are totally in the right and the druids totally in the wrong. There is no incentive IMO because there is no rational decision making behind not helping the refugees. The evil / goblin path notwithstanding as there you simply murder everyone in the grove for vague religious reasons.

Vhaldez #715209 24/10/20 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez


My point is that Kagha and her followers are mad about something they could eaily solve themselves but have chosen to be xenophobic assholes for a reason the player does not understand. I doubt you are supposed to hate Kahga to the level where siding with her is just irrational, right?

This might be one of those situations where the only people who are supposed to side with her are the "purge all the unholy in the name of whatever" types to make them feel good about themselves.


Originally Posted by Vhaldez
The Tieflings are totally in the right and the druids totally in the wrong. There is no incentive IMO because there is no rational decision making behind not helping the refugees. The evil / goblin path notwithstanding as there you simply murder everyone in the grove for vague religious reasons.

I agree with you on the first sentence. What I meant about not helping the refugees was that at this point in the game you probably are thinking the tadpole is really urgent and getting it out is priority. If you stop to save anyone you potentially put them at risk. The Kagha situation may shock you into acting to help the refugees first even if is not the safest idea.

Vhaldez #715212 24/10/20 02:07 PM
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In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.

pill0ws #715214 24/10/20 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.


There has to be more of a reason than demon people bad. Druids never act like this.

Vhaldez #715219 24/10/20 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.


There has to be more of a reason than demon people bad. Druids never act like this.

There is
.
Shes a shadow druid

Demoulius #715222 24/10/20 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius

There is
.
Shes a shadow druid


Except that then turns into an allegory about populism and is rendered moot when Halsin comes back to demote her. Is it really FR lore that there are comically racist druid hate groups out there?

Vhaldez #715225 24/10/20 02:15 PM
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I think they hint at Kahga being evil. Shes the "serpent" druid and all. I mean when you first meet her shes torturing a child, so yea, not your typical druid for sure. I feel like shes the real evil path, like the "lawful evil" path if they were to actually get the paths right. Minthara is a psycho... Kahga has a Game of Thrones Cersei Lannister vibe... at little less smooth but about as coldhearted. and when you think about it, a serpent is cold blooded

pill0ws #715227 24/10/20 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pill0ws
I think they hint at Kahga being evil. Shes the "serpent" druid and all. I mean when you first meet her shes torturing a child, so yea, not your typical druid for sure. I feel like shes the real evil path, like the "lawful evil" path if they were to actually get the paths right. Minthara is a psycho... Kahga has a Game of Thrones Cersei Lannister vibe... at little less smooth but about as coldhearted. and when you think about it, a serpent is cold blooded



But Kagha is not evil. She is

being manipulated by Olodan's shadow druid circle.


My problem with this is that she and the druids behave as though the Tieflings don't also want to leave.

Vhaldez #715231 24/10/20 02:22 PM
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Dont know, I think you have to tell him shes a shadow druid. He doesent seem to have caught on. Also a demotion of the kind that he dishes out there is a severe punishment. Banishment or death is probably the only things that are worse in their order.

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.

And honestly, I think most druids were protrayed very well. Nettie is a good example of good roleplay there. The multiple tests thing is horrid in its execution but she does what a druid would do when put in such a situation. She cant cure you and only Halsin possibly could but as far as she knows he might be dead. If she doesent cure it you will turn into a mindflayer (as per canon knowledge) and be a threat to all she holds dear. In a way shes giving you a mercy kill which is the kindest thing that she can do.

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.

Demoulius #715246 24/10/20 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.


Druids care about nature and their grove so they would be upset if someone upset that balance. They are also rational beings who can understand that the Tieflings have a concrete option to get out of their hair if they would actually bother to help them. If you "side with" the druids now Kagha encourages you to genocide the refugees because she is xenophobic and part of a hate group. That is bad writing.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.


This plays into that idea that the other druids are scared of the refugees destroying their livelihood (even though the Halfing trader is fine with them) and look to Kagha the demagogue for easy answers. I don't understand how they think Kagha is doing what is needed had you not conveniently showed up to do it for her, since she never undertakes anything against the Tieflings on her own initiative.

Vhaldez #715260 24/10/20 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.


Druids care about nature and their grove so they would be upset if someone upset that balance. They are also rational beings who can understand that the Tieflings have a concrete option to get out of their hair if they would actually bother to help them. If you "side with" the druids now Kagha encourages you to genocide the refugees because she is xenophobic and part of a hate group. That is bad writing.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.


This plays into that idea that the other druids are scared of the refugees destroying their livelihood (even though the Halfing trader is fine with them) and look to Kagha the demagogue for easy answers. I don't understand how they think Kagha is doing what is needed had you not conveniently showed up to do it for her, since she never undertakes anything against the Tieflings on her own initiative.

Well if they actually showed that they feared the Thieflings abit more that could work. But they dont see them mentioning or referencing this. Just that the druids feel that the Thieflings are eating their food and are uninvited quests. Or wose, vieuw them as parasites as Kaghda does.

Kahga doesent represent balance either, shes far from it. And non of the druids seem to really comment on this. Why is the the second in line to be leader after Halsin? This is also not really explained. Some do as she says because they fear her or do what she says because shes in charge. The ones fearing her allude to the fact that they know that what shes doing is wrong but you dont find any really speaking up. I did talk to 1 of them who was sending out a bird but failed the check to get more information out of her. My guess is shes looking for Halsin or sends the bird to inform him about whats going on.

But an entire camp of druids and only 1 is trying to 'fight back' doesent really sound like a druid camp to me. Maybe they should show Kahga dishing out punishment or crushing all dissent or something because as it stands it just seems shes feared because she has a big mouth. There has to be something bigger behind it...

Demoulius #715269 24/10/20 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius


Kahga doesent represent balance either, shes far from it. And non of the druids seem to really comment on this. Why is the the second in line to be leader after Halsin? This is also not really explained. Some do as she says because they fear her or do what she says because shes in charge. The ones fearing her allude to the fact that they know that what shes doing is wrong but you dont find any really speaking up. I did talk to 1 of them who was sending out a bird but failed the check to get more information out of her. My guess is shes looking for Halsin or sends the bird to inform him about whats going on.

But an entire camp of druids and only 1 is trying to 'fight back' doesent really sound like a druid camp to me. Maybe they should show Kahga dishing out punishment or crushing all dissent or something because as it stands it just seems shes feared because she has a big mouth. There has to be something bigger behind it...


Apukisis (the woman with the bird sending out messages) explains all of this if you pursuade her to tell you. She is Halsin's only remaining inside woman and says that all the other druids are flocking to Kagha because she is a demagogue and has easy answers. Like I said before I think the idea here is that populism bad, refugees good in a really hamfisted way. The actual logic behind the storytelling seems to take a backseat to push that message. Making Kagha even more evil like you suggest or trying to muddy the message somehow is not going to work. Druids are not a good antagonist in a story about sticking up for the oppressed.

If they do this;
Originally Posted by Vhaldez

Leave the inexperienced Rath as the leader of the grove who is then struggling to accomodate for the refugees' needs, which leads to both parties realising that the grove is not going to sustain them for much longer.


It would be much better. An uncomfortable situation with two groups on neutral terms makes more sense than a dramatically hostile situation that can spiral into mass murder of women and children.

Vhaldez #715276 24/10/20 02:58 PM
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You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....

Demoulius #715283 24/10/20 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....



See? It gets worse the more you think about it. Why did they pick druids for this scenario? The Tieflings could have been holed up in a tent camp in Waukeen's Rest but that is burnt to the ground, so now we are stuck with this awkard scenario where good people are bad and bad people are good.

Vhaldez #715324 24/10/20 03:32 PM
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There are some serious questions that you should be able to ask and when Kahga doesent have an anwser you then should be able to point that out.

The druids not getting involved is fine. Its not their responsibility to fight it after all and a gesture of 'you can stay here for the time beeing. He will feed you. But we wont fight on your behalf' would work alot better.

Disdain for their race is also fine, racism excists in dnd; but not disdain for their lives. Thats not what druids are about.

Demoulius #715411 24/10/20 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
There are some serious questions that you should be able to ask and when Kahga doesent have an anwser you then should be able to point that out.

The druids not getting involved is fine. Its not their responsibility to fight it after all and a gesture of 'you can stay here for the time beeing. He will feed you. But we wont fight on your behalf' would work alot better.

Disdain for their race is also fine, racism excists in dnd; but not disdain for their lives. Thats not what druids are about.


100% agree on the first and last part there. The druids should not want to actively fight the goblins so that the refugees can go away but they should also definitely not have the amount of disdain for the Tieflings' lives as they do now. I just have to disagree with the racism angle. There is something profoundly ironic about a multiracial druid grove originally led by a saintly gigachad falling into racist xenophobia so hard they forego the excuse that the Tieflings' presence is an affront to Faerûn's nature. Kagha is the worst example of this, she seems perfectly okay with the unnatural mix of her own people (surely that circle has no existed in the form that is is in now for thousands of years?) but as soon as demon people show up she wants to murder their children.

Let us also not forget how absurd it is that despite living conditions for the Tieflings supposedly being perilous, they are hanging out in a massive set of caves that the druids are not longer inhabiting for some reason. If they had just built a city there the druids would have been screwed, right?

Vhaldez #715449 24/10/20 04:54 PM
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Actually I see no problem with that. They do have various races but none of the druids are Thieflings wink

Also thr story of bg3 takes place shortly after descent into Avernus which explains their problems with the 'fiends'

Vhaldez #715532 24/10/20 05:49 PM
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My counterpoint is this line. Does this sound like druids to you? How is the "simple solution" not to help these people on their way?

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