Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Thoughts on current Shove action & Shield Master

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

I noticed that Shove is set as a bonus action rather than an action. This pretty much removes half the reason to take Shield Master as a feat. In the same vain I notice that Shield bash has been removed from the Shield Master feat. Seems odd given you have the mechanic already in place, As far as game play with Shove thus far, it seems a bit OP as a bonus action. I am pushing people off cliffs and buildings with abandon, with all players. In a lot of situations its my default bonus action over others especially if I marry it with those things that grant saving throw bonuses.

Why not push Shove to an action per the rules, grant it as a bonus action for those that have the Shield Master feat? It grants more utility to Shield Master, makes it less inviting to other character classes that would normally be less inclined to use up their action for the Shove feature and thus balance is achieved.

Just a shove for thought.

Ok, I'm gonna need your help with explaining what Shield Master has to do with Shove? Here's the text for Shield Master:

With the Shield Master feat, players will gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity saving throws if they are wielding a shield. If a player has to make a Dexterity saving throw, they can use a reaction to shield themselves. If the save is successful, they will take no damage.

It's just a +2 bonus to Dex saving throws while you have a shield equipped. What does that have to do with Shove?

Kleptom is referring to the Shield Master feat in the 5e players handbook. Most feats in 5e have multiple different perks, and shield master actually has three. The shield master feat in BG3 implements only one of these (the +2 to dex saving throws portion).

There are two other abilities with the shield master feat in players handbook. One allows you to use your reaction to take NO damage if you make a dexterity save, rather than half damage, and the other allows you to use your bonus action to shove. Neither of these is implemented in BG3 at the moment, but they are part of the feat in 5e.

Read what I posted again as I think you missed something: With the Shield Master feat, players will gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity saving throws if they are wielding a shield. If a player has to make a Dexterity saving throw, they can use a reaction to shield themselves. If the save is successful, they will take no damage.

The part I highlighted is pretty clearly the first ability you say isn't there. Now whether it is working or not, I can't speak for that as I have not taken the feat yet. It is there however.

Now, regarding the shove aspect, I read up on it in the SRD I see the issue now. OP is saying shove should only be a bonus action when used as part of this feat. Currently it is a bonus action for everyone when it should be an action for those without the feat. Can't say I disagree with OP on that. I'd bug report this OP so you can be sure it gets seen. I wouldn't rely on someone that matters seeing it on the forum.

Shove is the most op ability in the game currently.

I disagree.

Back on topic: If the action economy of shoving remains as it is, Shield Master really needs an additional feature to make it worth taking. Maybe an improved shove that knocks prone regardless of height? Another boon to defence? Captain America throw?

Personally, I took the 5e version on my Paladin and the feat felt lacking. It didn't help complete the "guardian" vision I was going for. I wouldn't mind if Larian took a few liberties with it to really make it shine.

I´m ok with it, but I think they should come with something new as a substitution if they take a feature from a class or feat.

Maybe it´s an upopular opinion, but I prefer that they allow all characters to have a bonus disengage, hide and shove and let larian come with something new for lvl 2 rogues and shield masters that improves or adds a new feature so they could be distinct while letting all players enjoy the shove, disengage and hide as a bonus.

@Osprey39. Sorry I could have worded that better. Some times I forget people aren't in my head. I just received the game and am playing through it where do I go to do bug reports? I really would like to get this before the game design God's.

I've heard of some people emailing them but I don't know the email address for that. Maybe someone will chime in with it. Here are the places listed in the FAQ though:

What is the best way to report issues/feedback to the team?
The Larian Forums - http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
Steam Forums - https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/
Discord - discord.gg/larianstudios
Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/

I wouldn't bother with Steam forums personally, they are a cesspool. Of the other choices, I say the feedback/gameplay problems forum here or Discord are probably your best bets.

I just posted it with more information under Suggestions & Feedback.

I have few very concise opinions about the "shove" option:

- it should be an action, especially if its stays as suspiciously reliable as it is now.
- to "compensate" it should do more damage than it does from certain heights.
- it should look a bit less cartoony and ridiculous. When I push someone from a cliff I expect to see the poor bastard fall down almost entirely in a vertical trajectory, not in an ample, pronounced parabolic arc.
- The animation should suggest the sense of "heavy body falling to the ground with a bit more... gravitas (how's that for a double entendre, uh?), not look like a sketch of Wil E. Coyote floating mid air.

Shove is really fun as it is. Literally every single person I've watched play BG3 on Twitch or YouTube (and it's been a lot) has been utterly delighted by Shove as it is. Even if it unbalances things (literally, am I right?) some, it's so entertaining I don't think they should change it.

Well. As it stands, you play low level only, so you don't get many attacks. It's nice to have something other to do than roll one die and skip turn. I admit, I'm having lots of fun with it.

But... It *is* far too powerful with the verticality of the environment. It *really* ought to be an action, instead of a bonus action. That, and the distance you push someone should be based off of your STR; currently Gale pushes just as far as Laezel does.

The game currently is heavily in favor of two-handed weapons because of it; why attack with the off-hand, if you can push something to death instead? Why go sword-and-board if the one thing that made it awesome is now for everyone?

I just think enemies need to be Shoving us just as much, that would make the combat even more tactical as we'd have to really consider whether or not we were in a vulnerable position to be Shoved.

Also, RE: Shield Master, they should just give advantage to Shoves if you have the feat and a shield.

I must be a DND 5e Rules purest, I think the way they have 5e set is based on Game balance that's been tested in actual game play, Granted that's pen and paper and an argument could be had to the actual translation to a computer game but I will freely admit I am biased on this post as I have some of my favorite characters I would love to build in Baldurs Gate.

FYI I pushed the Spider Queen off a web last night with my Warlock. My statement still stands, its over powered and Baldurs 3 game balance and character fine tuning will benefit from following the rule set long term on this one. Change it now before you start introducing the Paladin class. You can thank me later.

I was mighty surprised when one of the Zhentarim pushed Wyll(?) into the dark abyss. Sure doesn't happen enough :P

As for topic. Sounds like a nice way to go about a shove rebalancing.

What? Not in my experience he doesn't. Most of the time when I shove someone with my casters, it just knocks them prone until the end of the round. Not to mention, the to hit chance is impacted by your STR bonus so your chance of even being successful with Gale is much lower. I just loaded up a save and checked that. 40% hit chance with Gale, 70% with Lae'zel.

I think it is absolutely fine as it allows more ways to approach combat and gives high strength characters something to excel at. We are in The first part act 1 of a three act game....the creatures and encounters will get more difficult. Sneaking behind someone to shove them off a cliff will only be possible with high stealth skill which usually only high dex characters will have, and most high dex characters won’t have high strength, so it will still be a gamble.

You are complaining about the easiest beginner area of an extremely complicated and long game where even 95% doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed on normal difficulty. How many times has Gale shoved a a Minotaur off a ledge? Or a Githyanki? I’ve only had minimal success with Lazeal versus level 4 and 5 mobs. The creatures don’t stay prone so there’s no hit bonuses, it’s literally only useful at elevation. If they fluffed monsters stats and gave them all super high constitution and strength so they couldn’t be pushed, the fights would be less interesting, offer less variety, and turn off a lot of people who use the skill a few times only to realize it’s useless.

The spiders you find 30 minutes into the game can be solo’d and are not meant to be difficult...they are to teach you to use destructible terrain to your advantage (spiderwebs), remind you to spread out and not stay bunched because of aoe attacks(the poison), and that you can make fights easier by steathing and scoping things out (killing the eggs before she can hatch them)
It is a perfect beginners introduction to more complicated and useful playstyles.

Or you can shove them off the ledge over and over, which isn’t the point, but if you find that easier and more fun than we shouldn’t take that away

It sounds like your casters are shoving enemies into obstacles. I haven't seen any difference except for the STR increasing success chance. If you can't see a shove arc you will just push enemies to the ground and they will immediatly raise to their feet again.



If you're outside the enemies' field of view you can easily stealth with any character currently. Even without stealth you get a rather high success chance on all characters in my experience. Since it's a free action there is no downside unless you want to use a consumable as well.

I ran my last game with the od that removes extra surface damage and small things such as that makes sucha huge difference in how you approach the game and how you think about it tactically. Right now, abusing ledges for a combined fall damage + height advantage is ridiculous in my opinion.

In the game of Solasta, currently in EA too, the IA uses shove and sleep against you on a regular basis.

In the latest patch they took away the "shove" action for the enemies because they found out too many players are dying in Caer Lem, a very vertically build dungeon. They think to allow that in the highest difficult options.