|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I forgot to mention, because I said it in another thread, COD as of 2016 had 250 million copies sold so I said take it with a grain of salt when considering people's tastes as a barometer. This was more encapsulating it in a narrow genre with few contenders and just pointing out that they weren't some tiny group punching way above their weight and some of the other ames werent quite as popular as people make them to be. I understand your point but compairing numbers is quite the shortcut. Game weren't as popular and mainstream twenty years ago. They also used to be much more expensive. The industry has expanded since then.
If it's what it's takes to save the world, then the world doesn't deserves to be saved - Geralt
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I forgot to mention, because I said it in another thread, COD as of 2016 had 250 million copies sold so I said take it with a grain of salt when considering people's tastes as a barometer. This was more encapsulating it in a narrow genre with few contenders and just pointing out that they weren't some tiny group punching way above their weight and some of the other ames werent quite as popular as people make them to be. I understand your point but compairing numbers is quite the shortcut. Game weren't as popular and mainstream twenty years ago. They also used to be much more expensive. The industry has expanded since then. Again, merely a point of reference. Theres not a lot of statistics for games other than copies sold and user ratings. I can't go to spiritualsuccessorstobaldursgate2andother90sgames.com and have it adjust for gamer population inflation and what it probably would have sold and been rated at given todays environment. The point I made across several posts was pretty basic and was in acknowledgement of the limitations of what could be teased from that.
What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I forgot to mention, because I said it in another thread, COD as of 2016 had 250 million copies sold so I said take it with a grain of salt when considering people's tastes as a barometer. This was more encapsulating it in a narrow genre with few contenders and just pointing out that they weren't some tiny group punching way above their weight and some of the other ames werent quite as popular as people make them to be. I understand your point but compairing numbers is quite the shortcut. Game weren't as popular and mainstream twenty years ago. They also used to be much more expensive. The industry has expanded since then. Again, merely a point of reference. Theres not a lot of statistics for games other than copies sold and user ratings. I can't go to spiritualsuccessorstobaldursgate2andother90sgames.com and have it adjust for gamer population inflation and what it probably would have sold and been rated at given todays environment. The point I made across several posts was pretty basic and was in acknowledgement of the limitations of what could be teased from that. Yeah but stats can mean anything out of context. If you just throw some random number and don't take into account the parameters, then the conclusion you make from the stat doesn't describe reality. If you know your point is incomplete you should look for more infos IMO. I tried to find some stats for gamer populations but I only have up to 2014 for now. Anyways, just in six years (2014-2021), the number of player increased from 1.8 Billions to 2.8 Billions. Imagine in twenty.
Last edited by Hachina; 26/10/20 03:19 AM.
If it's what it's takes to save the world, then the world doesn't deserves to be saved - Geralt
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I forgot to mention, because I said it in another thread, COD as of 2016 had 250 million copies sold so I said take it with a grain of salt when considering people's tastes as a barometer. This was more encapsulating it in a narrow genre with few contenders and just pointing out that they weren't some tiny group punching way above their weight and some of the other ames werent quite as popular as people make them to be. I understand your point but compairing numbers is quite the shortcut. Game weren't as popular and mainstream twenty years ago. They also used to be much more expensive. The industry has expanded since then. Again, merely a point of reference. Theres not a lot of statistics for games other than copies sold and user ratings. I can't go to spiritualsuccessorstobaldursgate2andother90sgames.com and have it adjust for gamer population inflation and what it probably would have sold and been rated at given todays environment. The point I made across several posts was pretty basic and was in acknowledgement of the limitations of what could be teased from that. Yeah but stats can mean anything out of context. If you just throw some random number and don't take into account the parameters, then the conclusion you make from the stat doesn't describe reality. If you know your point is incomplete you should look for more infos IMO. I tried to find some stats for gamer populations but I only have up to 2014 for now. Anyways, just in six years (2014-2021), the number of player increased from 1.8 Billions to 2.8 Billions. Imagine in twenty. And a lot of those players don't have the same expectations as previous gens. If we went and enumerated all the variables and factors other than I JUST FEEL THE NEED TO CONSUME ANYTHING THAT HAS A NEW LABEL, well...
Last edited by JDCrenton; 26/10/20 03:21 AM.
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I forgot to mention, because I said it in another thread, COD as of 2016 had 250 million copies sold so I said take it with a grain of salt when considering people's tastes as a barometer. This was more encapsulating it in a narrow genre with few contenders and just pointing out that they weren't some tiny group punching way above their weight and some of the other ames werent quite as popular as people make them to be. I understand your point but compairing numbers is quite the shortcut. Game weren't as popular and mainstream twenty years ago. They also used to be much more expensive. The industry has expanded since then. Again, merely a point of reference. Theres not a lot of statistics for games other than copies sold and user ratings. I can't go to spiritualsuccessorstobaldursgate2andother90sgames.com and have it adjust for gamer population inflation and what it probably would have sold and been rated at given todays environment. The point I made across several posts was pretty basic and was in acknowledgement of the limitations of what could be teased from that. Yeah but stats can mean anything out of context. If you just throw some random number and don't take into account the parameters, then the conclusion you make from the stat doesn't describe reality. If you know your point is incomplete you should look for more infos IMO. I tried to find some stats for gamer populations but I only have up to 2014 for now. Anyways, just in six years (2014-2021), the number of player increased from 1.8 Billions to 2.8 Billions. Imagine in twenty. Lol, well I can't think of another way to say it, but I don't think we are in disagreement about anything.
What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
And a lot of those players don't have the same expectations as previous gens. If we went and enumerated all the variables and factors other than I JUST FEEL THE NEED TO CONSUME ANYTHING THAT HAS A NEW LABEL, well...
Ahah yeah there is that too.
Lol, well I can't think of another way to say it, but I don't think we are in disagreement about anything.
I guess yeah. Just nitpicking.
If it's what it's takes to save the world, then the world doesn't deserves to be saved - Geralt
|
|
|
|
journeyman
|
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
|
The question is, why should this "succession" matter? Different people understand different things under this term. First you need to to survey what people actually consider a successor:
1. D&D rule set? 2. Continuation of the story? 3. Gameplay mechanics? 4. Infinity engine?
For me personally, "succession" doesn't matter as long as the plot is interesting and gameplay is fun.
Also people succumb to their nostalgia where they remember only positive experience and forget about bad one. Try to play BG1 and BG2 now and you'll find out that not everything in those games is nice and peachy. I remember that I was annoyed that in BG2 every quest must have been resolved by combat. There were no peaceful solutions. You could pick a side but it was obligatory to destroy the opponents. Games evolve, things change. Devs should take the positive from the past and make new game better than before. Cloning experience won't work.
Worthy successor? Any great CRPG game (PoE 1 is not a good game in my experience, btw).
|
|
|
|
journeyman
|
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I just reinstalled and played POE yesterday.
The RT combat is such a mess.
You gotta "predict" area spells, but then the AI and your characters move "erratically". So annoying to press space bar space bar space bar.
You can say it's "tactical" and "deeper", I'll just stick to turn based.
You know, there is a reason why both PoE2 and PK released turn mode later...
Last edited by Lumign; 26/10/20 05:06 AM.
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
|
And a lot of those players don't have the same expectations as previous gens. If we went and enumerated all the variables and factors other than I JUST FEEL THE NEED TO CONSUME ANYTHING THAT HAS A NEW LABEL, well...
Some of us are the previous gens. It's funny, I collect game boxes from when I was buying all these games. I have 3 copies of BG, 2 copies of BG 2, with one being a Collector's Edition. All my IWD boxes, multiples of NWN and NWN 2, NWN because I needed a copy for keeping a server running, and another to play on another computer. I didn't have to have my mom's permission to buy 'em either, I was in my 30s. Some of us feel the need to consume things we enjoy, no matter what some random on the internet thinks about it. I'm sure the Witcher series is really good. I own all three, Enhanced Editions even, and multiple times, but I have never finished one of those games. Geralt is too dry a character for my tastes, but, CDPR does right by gamers, and so, I support them, to the point where I have already pre-ordered Cyberpunk 2077, and am now just waiting for the release date, so I can do any patching and downloading, and get busy playing. If everything goes right, maybe on my Series X, but if not, it'll be on my XBox 1, and I'll be kicking it in my recliner, trying out that new label. I've heard that Oblivion is really good too, but it's way to dry for my tastes. I did make it through Skyrim though. I'm not as impressed with it as some of my friends were, but, I did manage to finish it. You see, despite all the "no true Scotsman" that you ran with earlier, people have different tastes. The fact that you had to resort to a fallacy to try to support whatever it is you're trying to support speaks volumes though. I can't say if I like or dislike BG 3 yet, I simply don't have enough of the game to make that determination. When I think about what I do have, I also have to consider that it's more or less in an Alpha state, and that it was presented as a "playable demo", so I could offer any relevant feedback, and maybe have a say in how it gets developed. This isn't my first rodeo with things like this. I was invited to participate in the Aion closed betas, and the closed beta for swtor. I declined swtor's offer, I like Star Wars ok, but I'm not one of it's biggest fans. I played Aion from the second closed beta until just after it went F2P, and my sub was active when that happened. I've played a wide variety of games, because I found them fun. I took them for what they were, instead of trying to make them what I thought they should be, and you'd be surprised how much fun you can have in a game when you do that.
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Hi, We have, here a game "BG3" which proclaimed himself as the successor of BG1 and 2.
No this is a sequel to Baldur's Gate, not a "successor" Successor tends to be used about the same style of game but in a different game (aka Spiritual Successor) This is a sequel, it's the continuation of the world that was established in Baldur's Gate. Fallout 3 wasn't a successor to the Fallout games, but it was a sequel. PS: Please write out the names of games at least once. Not everyone knows what PoE or PK is.
|
|
|
|
addict
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Gameplay wise Pillars of eternity 1/2 doesnt get any closer to BG/BG2. Looks similar and plays similar. Of course stuff like the story/characters isnt up to BGs level I think. Kingmaker is an odd ball. I view it more as a DnD simulator. And I LOVE DnD 3.75 (pathfinder). So complicated and detailed my god.
Last edited by mr_planescapist; 26/10/20 07:44 AM.
|
|
|
|
member
|
member
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Oh man, I am so happy that I don't care about BG1/2. I could have been playing them, as I am old enough, just never got around to it. Although I would probably still dont be like some others here. For Morrowind is pretty much one of my favorite games of all time and I still like Skyrim. I have certain opinions why Morrowind is better than Skyrim, but imagine me being salty af just because they did some things differently
|
|
|
|
addict
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Oh man, I am so happy that I don't care about BG1/2. I could have been playing them, as I am old enough, just never got around to it. Although I would probably still dont be like some others here. For Morrowind is pretty much one of my favorite games of all time and I still like Skyrim. I have certain opinions why Morrowind is better than Skyrim, but imagine me being salty af just because they did some things differently Comparing Morrowind/Skyrim to Baldurs gate is like comparing Doom to Final Fantasy VI and saying both have shooting actions so they are action games. Technically yeaaa BUT....
Last edited by mr_planescapist; 26/10/20 07:51 AM.
|
|
|
|
member
|
member
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Oh man, I am so happy that I don't care about BG1/2. I could have been playing them, as I am old enough, just never got around to it. Although I would probably still dont be like some others here. For Morrowind is pretty much one of my favorite games of all time and I still like Skyrim. I have certain opinions why Morrowind is better than Skyrim, but imagine me being salty af just because they did some things differently Comparing Morrowind/Skyrim to Baldurs gate is like comparing Doom to Final Fantasy VI and saying both have shooting actions so they are action games. Technically yeaaa BUT.... I am comparing the way I handle nostalgia and change in game series. At the moment there is a LOT of salt on the forums about almost every change from BG1/2 to BG3. I just am lucky that I am not one of those people and can enjoy BG3 for the great game it probably will be.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
I am comparing the way I handle nostalgia and change in game series. At the moment there is a LOT of salt on the forums about almost every change from BG1/2 to BG3. I just am lucky that I am not one of those people and can enjoy BG3 for the great game it probably will be.
Generally a great attitude. Just don't throw the baby with the bathwater. And I think the best comparison here is fallout 3 Vs fallout 1-2
|
|
|
|
member
|
member
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I am comparing the way I handle nostalgia and change in game series. At the moment there is a LOT of salt on the forums about almost every change from BG1/2 to BG3. I just am lucky that I am not one of those people and can enjoy BG3 for the great game it probably will be.
Generally a great attitude. Just don't throw the baby with the bathwater. And I think the best comparison here is fallout 3 Vs fallout 1-2 I'm not throwing anything out. I just say that I am not one of these persons, who don't understand that new games often vary in mechanics and systems from older entries in the same game series. The fact is: 20 years ago games were built simpler and also often in a very similar engine, maybe a few tweaks. See BG1/2, Diablo1/2 and many other games of this generation. But modern games have much more possibilities and that can be used to create great systems. But doing something different always has potential to do something people don't like. I for one think Fallout 4 is not very much an RPG anymore, but i appreciate the settlement system. I hope that FO5 will have this kind of player impact in the world, while also having way better RPG elements. Some people here are just being salty because there is no hamster in this game (yet), which I just find are weird expectations.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
I am comparing the way I handle nostalgia and change in game series. At the moment there is a LOT of salt on the forums about almost every change from BG1/2 to BG3. I just am lucky that I am not one of those people and can enjoy BG3 for the great game it probably will be.
Generally a great attitude. Just don't throw the baby with the bathwater. And I think the best comparison here is fallout 3 Vs fallout 1-2 I'm not throwing anything out. I just say that I am not one of these persons, who don't understand that new games often vary in mechanics and systems from older entries in the same game series. The fact is: 20 years ago games were built simpler and also often in a very similar engine, maybe a few tweaks. See BG1/2, Diablo1/2 and many other games of this generation. But modern games have much more possibilities and that can be used to create great systems. But doing something different always has potential to do something people don't like. I for one think Fallout 4 is not very much an RPG anymore, but i appreciate the settlement system. I hope that FO5 will have this kind of player impact in the world, while also having way better RPG elements. Some people here are just being salty because there is no hamster in this game (yet), which I just find are weird expectations. I definitely agree that people should think really hard what is absolutely a must when creating a sequel to a game and what is not. The best example that comes to mind to me is the day/night cycle. I can't see any reason to keep it other than nostalgia
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I never really played the first two when they first came out. I tried to play them a few years ago for the first time, but not being a fan of that type of gameplay, and the fact they were so dated, I couldn't get into them and just played PnP some more. So, I don't want to comment too much on the differences between 3 and the other two. I will say, that I don't think its necessarily bad that BG3 is turn-based. After all, the first two games came out so long ago, BG3 is not exactly a 'natural progression' in the series. Its more like a reboot. I'm also not a game developer so I don't know how well the rest of the elements in BG3 would mesh if they made it exactly like the originals.
However, I agree that some elements in BG3's gameplay is wonky, and you're right that there is not a sense of epicness. I too think a little too much emphasis is placed on environmental factors. And if the strategy part of that was working perfectly as intended, that would be just fine, as that a very important tactical element to any kind of "real battle" which is knowing ones environment. But at the end of the day, this is DnD, not some kind of Ghost Recon game or RL tactical simulator. And anybody that's played PnP knows that sometimes you can just bullrush a battle, get a handful of lucky dice rolls and massacre the opposition, or lose a battle you should have won because of said rolls. What I am driving at is that DnD is not all about placing your miniatures perfectly on the grid(if you use them, which I don't because I hate it) and having an expectation that perfect tactics, or perfect cheese tactics will be the only way to win any encounter no matter how big or small.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
Witcher3 - a story driven RPG with memorable quests, engaging characters and massive hand crafted world that kept on giving. Big world to explore with something interesting in every corner. Playing it felt like playing BG2 for the first time.
So far out of he bunch PoE1&2 are my favourite - as far as nostalgia I thought PoE1 hit it really well as a successor to Infinity Engines as a whole. I also think they address some issues I have with DND adapted to RTwP, even though they create some problems of their own. Still, mimicking a 20years old game is what’s holding it’s back as well - still PoE are the series I see most potential in, at least for myself. It also happens to hit my personal tastes - like BG, but appealing to 30years old me, rather then the 13 years old me.
Kingmaker - not a fan. It’s combat is the most literal adaptation of BG approach but it’s not awkward d20 rolls that made me love BGs. Kingmaker campaign is simply too poor - from companions to “story”, to god-awful pacing, to how much of time it wastes without creating systemic consistency, immersion or fun. It’s a tedious experience that rarely flows and mercilessly stretches a small amount of content through tedious and poor design. There is good stuff in Kingmaker, but I feel it completely misses what makes an RPGs work - for me it is the 2nd RPG (another being original Neverwinter Nights), which I found little to no joy in. To me Kingmaker is best summarised by its “procedural dungeon” DLC - bland, lifeless, cruel adventure with bizzare spikes in difficulty, and no flair - not something that reminds me of BG1&2 at all.
BG3 - it looks good! Larian approach to what makes an RPG is fresh and still interesting. And i don’t think they yet reached their full potential. D:OS2 wasn’t for me, BG3 still might not be, but it looks far better. As to it’s relations to BG - I don’t see much. It doesn’t look/feel like it, and I think Larian’s priorities and completely different hen Biowares.
Last edited by Wormerine; 26/10/20 10:11 AM.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
Witcher3 - a story driven RPG with memorable quests, engaging characters and massive hand crafted world that kept on giving. Big world to explore with something interesting in every corner. Playing it felt like playing BG2 for the first time. This is a great great point. on the surface, The Witcher 3 is nothing like BG at all. but upon closer inspection, there are a lot of similarities. And there is no way the Witcher 3 could have been as great as it is without BG. but unlike the other wannabes, CD project knew execlty what parts of BG they need, and what parts they should innovate. Instead of coping BG they built upon it.
|
|
|
|
|