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The title should be pretty self explanatory.

Dear Larian, I appreciate in principle your design philosophy about how the players are allowed to attempt to kill *any* NPC or creature in the game, even when plot relevant, but "allowed to attempt it" doesn't mean you should make it easy for them.

If we have a meeting with a creature that is supposed to be far too powerful for our level range, let it be so. Don't scale that creature down to our level to accommodate our ego.

Just make it clear that it's a bad idea to even try.
And don't be afraid to put a "level 20" encounter as long as we are not supposed to face it in combat.

Also, as we are on topic: there's absolutely no need to show us the level of every NPCs or monsters we meet just under their name, to begin with.
"Checking before starting a fight if our levels match" is not the feeling that adventuring in D&D is supposed to give.


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I agree. Killing a lvl 5 mindflayer so early def felt like a stretch....
No lvl 2 party should be able to kill a mindflayer. I wouldnt have minded seeing it at lvl 10. and us fighting it at lvl 4 or something

side note... where did you fight the dragon???

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Originally Posted by Prunk44
I agree. Killing a lvl 5 mindflayer so early def felt like a stretch....
No lvl 2 party should be able to kill a mindflayer. I wouldnt have minded seeing it at lvl 10. and us fighting it at lvl 4 or something

side note... where did you fight the dragon???


North of the map, Risen road. If you don't engage into the cutscene, you can fight the dragon right away.

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Originally Posted by Prunk44
I agree. Killing a lvl 5 mindflayer so early def felt like a stretch....

Well, I think this is a bade example.
That mind flayer was a dying one with 3HP remaining and crushed under a boulder. Not exactly a fair duel between your party and the poor bastard.
And he can still put you in mortal danger if you give it a chance, as he absolutely SHOULD.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
The title should be pretty self explanatory.

Dear Larian, I appreciate in principle your design philosophy about how the players are allowed to attempt to kill *any* NPC or creature in the game, even when plot relevant, but "allowed to attempt it" doesn't mean you should make it easy for them.

If we have a meeting with a creature that is supposed to be far too powerful for our level range, let it be so. Don't scale that creature down to our level to accommodate our ego.

Just make it clear that it's a bad idea to even try.
And don't be afraid to put a "level 20" encounter as long as we are not supposed to face it in combat.

Also, as we are on topic: there's absolutely no need to show us the level of every NPCs or monsters we meet just under their name, to begin with.
"Checking before starting a fight if our levels match" is not the feeling that adventuring in D&D is supposed to give.



I love how Tuco saves me the work of putting my thoughts into words.
Thank you.

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Interestingly, the stats of the red dragon, HP, armor class, etc. are exactly like in D&D 5E. Only the fire immunity is obviously missing
https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...s-chromatic/dragon-red/dragon-red-adult/

That you can kill it only shows how broken Larians combat system is (or rather the barrels you are likely using to blow him up).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGQiFuZ8Kc

Last edited by Ixal; 27/10/20 02:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Interestingly, the stats of the red dragon, HP, armor class, etc. are exactly like in D&D 5E.
https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...s-chromatic/dragon-red/dragon-red-adult/

That you can kill it only shows how broken Larians combat system is (or rather the barrels you are likely using to blow him up).


I don't doubt. I'll take your word for it.
And to be honest I didn't even check the stats nor I attempted personally to fight/kill it, because that's not really the point.
The issue is precisely to have everything "leveled" to your range (leaving aside if the number is sincere or misleading as in this case) and, as I said, I find questionable the very fact that a level number is showed explicitly to begin with.
Also, I'm admittedly being introduced to 5th edition just recently, but as far as I know in past editions monsters in D&D weren't supposed to have "levels" at all, just a vague difficulty rate.

Last edited by Tuco; 27/10/20 02:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Interestingly, the stats of the red dragon, HP, armor class, etc. are exactly like in D&D 5E. Only the fire immunity is obviously missing
https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...s-chromatic/dragon-red/dragon-red-adult/

That you can kill it only shows how broken Larians combat system is (or rather the barrels you are likely using to blow him up).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGQiFuZ8Kc


I wouldn't say it was broken since the dragon itself just disappeared. Normally this number of barrels shouldn't kill him.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Ixal
Interestingly, the stats of the red dragon, HP, armor class, etc. are exactly like in D&D 5E.
https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...s-chromatic/dragon-red/dragon-red-adult/

That you can kill it only shows how broken Larians combat system is (or rather the barrels you are likely using to blow him up).


I don't doubt. I'll take your word for it.
And to be honest I didn't even check the stats nor I attempted personally to fight/kill it, because that's not really the point.
The issue is precisely to have everything "leveled" to your range (leaving aside if the number is sincere or misleading as in this case) and, as I said, I find questionable the very fact that a level number is showed explicitly to begin with.
Also, I'm admittedly being introduced to 5th edition just recently, but as far as I know in past editions monsters in D&D weren't supposed to have "levels" at all, just a vague difficulty rate.


But what does the level number actually effect? The stats are just like in the Monster Manual and there it is a level 17 challenge.
Of course, Larian has inflated the HP of everything they want you to fight by a lot so the dragon with its normal HP will look puny compared to them. And its missing its fire immunity and all other abilities (and not only dragons. Imps should also be fire immune and resistant to a lot more).

But leaving aside the specifics, the OPs general question or observation still stand. At this point of the game there should be no way that the party can fight the dragon and survive. Will Larian really implement things on the map the party can't kill or will they tone down everything so that the party can kill them?

Last edited by Ixal; 27/10/20 02:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Ixal
Interestingly, the stats of the red dragon, HP, armor class, etc. are exactly like in D&D 5E.
https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...s-chromatic/dragon-red/dragon-red-adult/

That you can kill it only shows how broken Larians combat system is (or rather the barrels you are likely using to blow him up).


I don't doubt. I'll take your word for it.
And to be honest I didn't even check the stats nor I attempted personally to fight/kill it, because that's not really the point.
The issue is precisely to have everything "leveled" to your range (leaving aside if the number is sincere or misleading as in this case) and, as I said, I find questionable the very fact that a level number is showed explicitly to begin with.
Also, I'm admittedly being introduced to 5th edition just recently, but as far as I know in past editions monsters in D&D weren't supposed to have "levels" at all, just a vague difficulty rate.


But what does the level number actually effect? The stats are just like in the Monster Manual and there it is a level 17 challenge.
Of course, Larian has inflated the HP of everything they want you to fight by a lot so the dragon with its normal HP will look puny compared to them. And its missing its fire immunity and all other abilities (and not only dragons. Imps should also be fire immune and resistant to a lot more).


Yeah, the missing fire immunity is the most hilarious thing.

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Agreed.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Agree that we should not show levels. Let the players learn from their mistakes if they attempt to fight an Archdruid or Red Dragon or Beholder or Mind Flayer. I know there has been some concern that combat is hard, but that should be the case especially when dealing with these special chars.

Getting one shot from these characters should serve as a reminder that you can't just murderhobo everything even if you wanted to. This can also serve as a way to ensure the games integrity in a sense that important powerful NPCs really can only be dealt with via the Plot. Example taking out Kagha as level a group of level 2 instead of having the support of the Tieflings which results in heavy casualties.

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Originally Posted by Ixal

But what does the level number actually effect?

Immersion, for one.
And that's assuming the level displayed is *actually* the only change. Which is debatable (as you and other people are already pointing fire immunity as an example).


Last edited by Tuco; 27/10/20 03:00 PM.

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If you are asking for a difficulty setting where you can hide the level, I can see that as a viable game difficulty option for hardcore types, but requesting that the level is hidden by default for most players I am fairly certain would never fly, heh smile It's important so that you know if you are ready or not for some set difficulty/encounter. No level and just letting players get destroyed without so much as a hint would make for a pretty awful and frustrating experience. As if we didn't quick save/load enough already. For example, In EA you can access the underdark early on if you stumble across an entrence, but everything in there is like 2 levels higher vs when you would typically discover it.

But like a difficulty setting a player can set - yeah totally.

Also as far as "Immersion" goes, I would say right now the entire game is Immersion-breaking since you can somehow rest under the moonlight while venturing through the udnerdark. So some of the other stuff that may not make sense pales in comparison to the "camp" idea. Give me back my tavern!

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I suspect Larian is using levels for all the RPG gamers out there who need to know how awesome they are for having beating a level X creature. The creature levels do not match with their D&D CR, so it's pointless information, even more when they buffed certain creatures anyway.

For example, Haslin is not a level 5 druid. He can cast spells while transformed into a bear, that means he is at least level 18th. His HP match a level 18 druid too. You can take have him as a temporary companion to clear the goblins. I suspect many people would complaining if he read Level 18 or CR 18 instead of just level 5.

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Creatures have CR level, not level. So its already not D&D. But I have to say - I DM a lot, and I've been in a few games of D&D; DMs do this stuff all the time for parties. Instead of scratching yams out of the dirt on your peasant farm and watching a Nautilus crash, you were on it, in Avernus, with Red Dragons and Gith attacking. Is that reasonable? No. Was it more fun? Yes. Why did the Gith ride off on the red dragon at the fallen bridge instead of just incinerating you? Because its an encounter and I can TPK you any second I want to, that isn't fun. I wanted it to be a Gith fight.

The only thing I would say is that creatures using correct CRs from MM and other source would be simpler for everyone and right now they might just be throwing the MM out the window and doing whatever they want. That same red dragon in 6 levels will have 2000hp, who knows? So, without rhyme or reason, we can only say that they are doing what they think is fun. The Arch Druid thing would make the grove storyline impossible, they'd be too powerful. If it was a D&D campaign and I was running it, yeah there wouldn't be an arch druid - thats the hook, its the noobs running it doing stupid stuff.

Conceptually, everything they did is fine. Divorcing it from the MM is annoying and the composition and titles of the NPCs could probably be better arranged so when you run into an actual max level arch druid it means something. You shouldn't have different levels of Arch Druid. A level 6 druid is running the place in place of Halsin, a Level 10. Everyone else is level 4. The watchers were level 5 shadow druids. There, now theres a lot of power swings depending on who you woo and its more dynamic.

Ultimately, they aren't approaching this like a DM and it shows.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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