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Originally Posted by Nyanko

You might want to take into account the absolute zealots have been 'infected' by the parasite through a ritual apparently.

So it could also mean the absolute is just a puppet of the illithids and they are the ones providing her with the tadpoles. And so, she's just a pawn in their scheme and the player has got the baby first hand from them instead, which created a sort of schism between two factions which in fact are one and only.


I think the Absolute is meant to be more powerful than several gods combined, considering there are hints towards it wanting to overthrow the Dead Three. This is not conveyed to the player well at all though, it seems as though the Absolute is a small upstart cult in the area you are in and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Well the new community update is up and they talk about how many people decided to side with the Tieflings over Minthara.

Good does out weight the Bad but not entirely because of our Morals Larian.


We’re saving perhaps the most interesting until last. Slight spoiler, so if you don’t want spoilers, don’t read this. You may know that at a point in the game, you may side with one of two factions: the Tieflings against the goblins, or with Minthara who demands the gates are opened for the goblins to attack the Druids Grove.

74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on.


75% to 25%... This confirms that this binary choice is the only one that matters and how poorly implemented it is.


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The binary choice of siding with the refugees or the goblins is fine by me.
The problem in my opinion is the choices you get before getting to that point. And the choices after it.

IE sparing the tieflings, but sparing them after robbing them blind.
You could say they become my servants, I spare their lives if they spread the word of the Absolute in Baldur's Gate.

Or some other contrived way of just not being a dumb murder hobo.

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I highlighted in my thread that the reason why people are inclined to side with the Tieflings is because of how the start always paints the Goblins as "bad" seeing you don't have a choice to fight with them at the Druid's Grove. If people are given a choice to fight with the Goblins and experience the other side of the story, they may then be more inclined to take out the Druids. Remember that there are various ways the Grove can be ambushed and currently it seems the story is forced to go via the main gate interaction.

In my Halfling playthrough after the Tieflings took out the Druids, I systematically murdered each of the remaining Tieflings. I then decided to head towards the Goblin camp to inform Minthara of my actions and was hoping for a different reaction or reward of sorts. The same cutscene then proceed to happen where she gets annoyed at the Goblin with the poor scouting and asking me about the torture or if I know what happened. Was REALLY hoping for a "I took them all out myself for the Absolute" option which would be super awesome. Of course it was not meant to be and she then proceeded to do the whole, Lets go we found the place. Only way to proceed from then on is to take a Long Rest which then gives an update on the Quest that the "Goblins got to the Grove before you can do anything". Bummed out cause, you know, I was the one that did all the killing lol.

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
The binary choice of siding with the refugees or the goblins is fine by me.
The problem in my opinion is the choices you get before getting to that point. And the choices after it.

IE sparing the tieflings, but sparing them after robbing them blind.
You could say they become my servants, I spare their lives if they spread the word of the Absolute in Baldur's Gate.

Or some other contrived way of just not being a dumb murder hobo.


The current system of setpiece choices with permatutions along the way does not seem to allow for that, which is a shame. Maybe further down the line when the "evil" path is reworked there will be room for nuance like this, but Larian going 75% GOOD WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE in the latest announcement worries me a little.

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Originally Posted by Tzariax
I highlighted in my thread that the reason why people are inclined to side with the Tieflings is because of how the start always paints the Goblins as "bad" seeing you don't have a choice to fight with them at the Druid's Grove. If people are given a choice to fight with the Goblins and experience the other side of the story, they may then be more inclined to take out the Druids. Remember that there are various ways the Grove can be ambushed and currently it seems the story is forced to go via the main gate interaction.

In my Halfling playthrough after the Tieflings took out the Druids, I systematically murdered each of the remaining Tieflings. I then decided to head towards the Goblin camp to inform Minthara of my actions and was hoping for a different reaction or reward of sorts. The same cutscene then proceed to happen where she gets annoyed at the Goblin with the poor scouting and asking me about the torture or if I know what happened. Was REALLY hoping for a "I took them all out myself for the Absolute" option which would be super awesome. Of course it was not meant to be and she then proceeded to do the whole, Lets go we found the place. Only way to proceed from then on is to take a Long Rest which then gives an update on the Quest that the "Goblins got to the Grove before you can do anything". Bummed out cause, you know, I was the one that did all the killing lol.



It's linked as well on how the map is made. And it's a narrative flaw I think. Because your character has to see the gate scene, where goblins attack the grove, before meeting goblins in the blighted village. You can't even escape it in stealth. It's just thrown at your face because there is no other way to get higher in the map than by this route.

There should be a way to avoid the gate fight altogether and meet the goblins first.

Last edited by Nyanko; 27/10/20 03:02 PM.
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i still think its just odd game design that despite wotc directing larian to move away from an alignment system, larian/wotc still clearly distinguishes between good v evil story paths while not allowing the pc to select an alignment for roleplaying purposes - even if alignment was something as arbitrary as hair color in terms of game mechanics.

i wonder how/if larian incorporates any feedback to modify an 'evil' playthrough to make it more worthwhile to pursue for the player to even out that 75v25 dynamic, ie quest rewards, companion priorities, ease of completing either story path, etc. i do think that for a dnd game that there should be more than just the 'good v evil' binary choices for this particular scenario, which there are already elements of (ignore questline or murderhobo everyone, etc) but i also think there should be a possibility for creating a truce or temporary ceasefire between the two sides (tho granted a truce isnt really evil) or if you were able to roll (intimidate, persuade, deceive, etc) to cause one of the two leaders of either side stand down in such a way that didnt result in bloodshed but still gave this story line a 'victory' to either the goblins or tieflings (or druids)

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Originally Posted by nation

i wonder how/if larian incorporates any feedback to modify an 'evil' playthrough to make it more worthwhile to pursue for the player to even out that 75v25 dynamic, ie quest rewards, companion priorities, ease of completing either story path, etc. i do think that for a dnd game that there should be more than just the 'good v evil' binary choices for this particular scenario, which there are already elements of (ignore questline or murderhobo everyone, etc) but i also think there should be a possibility for creating a truce or temporary ceasefire between the two sides (tho granted a truce isnt really evil) or if you were able to roll (intimidate, persuade, deceive, etc) to cause one of the two leaders of either side stand down in such a way that didnt result in bloodshed but still gave this story line a 'victory' to either the goblins or tieflings (or druids)


Move away from setpiece decisions and make larger permutations possible for both paths. Of course, that is not possible if the Tieflings have an entire arc planned in Act 2 which requires them to be central to the narrative. It seems to me that the goblins and Minthara betray you now so they are out of the picture in Act 1B and beyond, making the choice Tieflings or nothing at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Tzariax
I highlighted in my thread that the reason why people are inclined to side with the Tieflings is because of how the start always paints the Goblins as "bad" seeing you don't have a choice to fight with them at the Druid's Grove. If people are given a choice to fight with the Goblins and experience the other side of the story, they may then be more inclined to take out the Druids. Remember that there are various ways the Grove can be ambushed and currently it seems the story is forced to go via the main gate interaction.

In my Halfling playthrough after the Tieflings took out the Druids, I systematically murdered each of the remaining Tieflings. I then decided to head towards the Goblin camp to inform Minthara of my actions and was hoping for a different reaction or reward of sorts. The same cutscene then proceed to happen where she gets annoyed at the Goblin with the poor scouting and asking me about the torture or if I know what happened. Was REALLY hoping for a "I took them all out myself for the Absolute" option which would be super awesome. Of course it was not meant to be and she then proceeded to do the whole, Lets go we found the place. Only way to proceed from then on is to take a Long Rest which then gives an update on the Quest that the "Goblins got to the Grove before you can do anything". Bummed out cause, you know, I was the one that did all the killing lol.



It's linked as well on how the map is made. And it's a narrative flaw I think. Because your character has to see the gate scene, where goblins attack the grove, before meeting goblins in the blighted village. You can't even escape it in stealth. It's just thrown at your face because there is no other way to get higher in the map than by this route.

There should be a way to avoid the gate fight altogether and meet the goblins first.



Totally agree with you hence why I recommended the alternate choices to resolve this problem. That encounter can still happen but you are given a choice to either side with either party or watch. Assuming watch we can assume the Goblins lose (realistically you're a scouting party that chanced on a Druid Grove) and then a simple check to convince them to let you in or not.

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"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "

I'll just put it here and see what happens


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "

I'll just put it here and see what happens


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Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "

I'll just put it here and see what happens

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I just finished my evil run and pretty much had the same problems. There's no incentive for being evil. The gith route isn't in EA yet and that might work for a more sane selfish character that doesn't care about the Tieiflings. Wish the absolute people actually tried to recruit you though. Isn't that the whole point of putting the tadpole in us? They could offer us a way to control it, tempt us with power. Astarion might even be into that. Instead, they're all wanting to kill us, making it hard to even get on the evil route. I save scummed to do it both ways. Sided with goblins for the hell of it, only reason there is. Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance. It's kinda funny that they throw a party for me when I'm the reason the goblins knew about their location. Felt like Shrek walking into my camp, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP!?"

On a side note, my evil run was also my solo challenge run. I didn't recruit any of the companions. I could solo the temple bandits and gnolls. Even managed some goblin encounters. I used environmental traps and would take ranged pop shots, hide, repeat. Didn't bring any barrels with me for those kind of tricks. I was a rogue too, so even in a fixed action economy my sneak attack cheese would still work. Enemies should come looking at the last place they saw you rather than just standing still and *growling.* Most goblins I could skip past, being an evil drow. Sneaked past the minotaurs too. I did use Glut for the dark dwarves though. For the big battle at the grove I used the ogre bonehorn. I was actually surprised how little I died and that I could actually make it to the skiff and end the game. A fun challenge!

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Can only agree.


+1. Can only agree here. Let's hope elements of this open up later in EA.

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Originally Posted by HustleCat
I just finished my evil run and pretty much had the same problems. There's no incentive for being evil. The gith route isn't in EA yet and that might work for a more sane selfish character that doesn't care about the Tieiflings. Wish the absolute people actually tried to recruit you though. Isn't that the whole point of putting the tadpole in us? They could offer us a way to control it, tempt us with power. Astarion might even be into that. Instead, they're all wanting to kill us, making it hard to even get on the evil route. I save scummed to do it both ways. Sided with goblins for the hell of it, only reason there is. Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance. It's kinda funny that they throw a party for me when I'm the reason the goblins knew about their location. Felt like Shrek walking into my camp, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP!?"


Recent discoveries in the files have made "evil" even worse.

Apparently Zevlor is an Absolute spy. He has a few lines referring to this that were found in the datamine. It might be cut content, but this means even the good path is an evil path now.

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That is the most retarded thing i have heard today.
No.

No. Just no

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Another issue with the current evil path is that to get on it you actually need to perform an act of altruism first.

Stepping in front of the crossbow to save a mere goblin is not something most evil characters would do. Gale even treats this moment as the very height of heroism when you do it and when he talks to you later about why he trusts you so much. I did it in my game because my Gith reasoned that getting the goblin to lead him back to camp would be the quickest way to Halsin and a cure, but I could see another evil character not consider the option at all.

Is there any way to meet Minthara and join the Absolute without rescuing Sazza first?

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Another issue with the current evil path is that to get on it you actually need to perform an act of altruism first.

Stepping in front of the crossbow to save a mere goblin is not something most evil characters would do. Gale even treats this moment as the very height of heroism when you do it and when he talks to you later about why he trusts you so much. I did it in my game because my Gith reasoned that getting the goblin to lead him back to camp would be the quickest way to Halsin and a cure, but I could see another evil character not consider the option at all.

Is there any way to meet Minthara and join the Absolute without rescuing Sazza first?


Of course. You can either play as a drow (the easiest option) or use the tadpole when you meet the goblins at the camp and they will let you pass, thus won't be hostile. I've never needed Sazza to join Minthara personally.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Another issue with the current evil path is that to get on it you actually need to perform an act of altruism first.

Stepping in front of the crossbow to save a mere goblin is not something most evil characters would do. Gale even treats this moment as the very height of heroism when you do it and when he talks to you later about why he trusts you so much. I did it in my game because my Gith reasoned that getting the goblin to lead him back to camp would be the quickest way to Halsin and a cure, but I could see another evil character not consider the option at all.

Is there any way to meet Minthara and join the Absolute without rescuing Sazza first?

There are actually many ways. which is great from a gameplay point and terrible from a story point.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Unless this is communicated to the player through gameplay I see no point in pretending there is a bigger picture we are just not seeing.

Well ... i havent seen any "big final reward" for being good either. :-/
So it seem only fair to presume the same for both paths.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
The player knows ingame that the Absolute is a sham and its forces are presented as weak and newly emerging, no sudden massive increase in power on the Absolute's part is going to convince me otherwise.

A sham? Not at all ...
For one, Absolute is that magic entity that stoped your transformation ... even that aloe is proof enough of her being real. laugh
For two, players dont know ... other characters presume, or are quite sure about, but they dont "know" since they have no source. wink

Forces presented as weak?
Where? laugh There is goblin army that whole druid groove, and tiefling refugees are affraid off ...
Duegars seem to have own fortress in Underdark, and they were strong enough to wipe out Myconid village ...
And Absolute have demonstrably Drows on her side ...
That is what you call weak? laugh

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It's like the Absolute is the new cool villain on the block that is going to overtake all the gods (the goblins disavowed Maglubiyet, Minthara possibly disoved Lolth) but none of the NPC's who are not already aligned with the Absolute take it seriously. The NPC's that are already with the Absolute are over the top zealots who hate you for telling them their True Souls are tadpoled.

Well you cant reveal main antagonist if first ten minutes of game ...
And it seem to me understandable that they hate you for telling them, they see themselves as Clerics that have this unnatural power given from their gods ... not some braineating parasite. laugh That kinda diminshes their social status.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Not to mention that even if what you say is true, I don't see why siding with Minthara is the same as siding with the Absolute as a whole.

Me neither ...
Im not sure if i ever even sugested such thing.

Presuming that Larian will be loyal to their permutation standards ...
We may be possibly do many things ... ally her, betray her and take her place, boss her, etc.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
If that were the case, surely the goblins would not betray you.

Goblins obey their misstress ... she comand, they follow ... they dont even think for themselves.
Therefore Goblins "technicaly" never betrayed you ... Minthara did(read as could), and they just followed orders.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Helping the Absolute feels like being its thankless errand boy right now

A bit, yes ...
In my country we say: "Who come late, harms himself."

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
everyone else already on board with it is in an established position in the Absolute's forces and would kill a newcomer like you on a dime. Nobody tries to sell you the side of the Absolute other than the being itself through those dreams

Yup, totally ... so far we met 2 Absolute priests ... and conveniently she was both selfish beneficial b**ch, that was just planning to use us and betray us for her own benefit.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
and it is unclear right now how much agency the Illithid tadpole has in this.

Indeed ...
It would be fun, if illithids will be used just as we were in this scenario. :3
But i believe they know about it ... since that dead Illithid in Goblin camp known quite good answer for: "What is absolute?"
Maybe its some new kind of elder brain? :-/
That could explain why everyone sees it as beautifull being. :P

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
What we do know however is that we are infected, for some reason nobody else on the Absolute's side knows this. What if you go through with the evil path and the Absolute just extracts your now incredibly powerful tadpole, then kills you?

I gues we will die in that case? laugh
Dunno, but its possible ... i would not take it as certainity, there will for sure be some dicerolls to save your ass ... or brain ... or both, separately. laugh

Originally Posted by Vhaldez
I think the Absolute is meant to be more powerful than several gods combined, considering there are hints towards it wanting to overthrow the Dead Three. This is not conveyed to the player well at all though, it seems as though the Absolute is a small upstart cult in the area you are in and nothing more.

Nothin more yet ...
Minthara specificly say to you (when you win your dicerolls) that she will go prepare the army, while you shall go meet the Absolute, and you will come back as "something magnificent" (or something like that).

Originally Posted by Eddiar
75% to 25%... This confirms that this binary choice is the only one that matters and how poorly implemented it is.

I think not ...
It certainly confrims that through multiple permutation, wich can suit multiple different character you can get two outcomes by the end.
After all, even if you were able to take half Tieflings to prison, and then sell them as slaves ... wich was one of suggestions here, you will be still concidered as "helped goblins" in this statistics.

Originally Posted by HustleCat
Wish the absolute people actually tried to recruit you though. Isn't that the whole point of putting the tadpole in us? They could offer us a way to control it, tempt us with power.

Wait here ...
Absolute (as potential godess) do all that. When speak to you through your dreams.

Originally Posted by HustleCat
Instead, they're all wanting to kill us

True, but that is not Absolute, that is her Cultists ...
While Absolute may be godes, or some entity that will try to become godess, and may want another followers, worshippers, etc.
Cultist are merely mortals, who want their power in this new system ... so they, on the contrary are affraid of competition, and therefore erase it as soon as possible.

At least that is how i understand it.

Originally Posted by HustleCat
Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance.

Well ... so far all we know is that Halsin can point you the direction where from is that "strange dark magic" that alternet tadpole ...
Meaning he will just show you the way to the Absolute, simmilar (if not just the same) as Minthara.

Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Another issue with the current evil path is that to get on it you actually need to perform an act of altruism first.

Stepping in front of the crossbow to save a mere goblin is not something most evil characters would do. Gale even treats this moment as the very height of heroism when you do it and when he talks to you later about why he trusts you so much. I did it in my game because my Gith reasoned that getting the goblin to lead him back to camp would be the quickest way to Halsin and a cure, but I could see another evil character not consider the option at all.

Is there any way to meet Minthara and join the Absolute without rescuing Sazza first?

Well ... not sure if that isnt bug (and i presume it is) ...
Every time you walk into that camp you are able to simply walk and talk to Minthara, not sure if you can allways walk through front doors ... but there is few other ways.
For som strainge reason, all goblins are neutral to you when you get there, even if you kill guards behind the bridge and even if they sound the allarm with that cute buggy drum. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 27/10/20 11:26 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
emojis

Can you give me a more general argument about why you think the evil route is anything more than a mmorpg quest with sex prize?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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