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So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO

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I hope not. IMHO, DOS2: Definitive Edition was basically the game we should have gotten on initial release.

I am worried about the FULL release of BG3, as my first FULL release play of DOS2 on the first week of release was full of bugs and broken quests and crashes. DOS2: DE, which came out well after the initial FULL game, was basically an attempt to finally fix all of that.

They advertised new content and new combat, but it was very minimal and you were playing the same game. Most of the mods and features they added were created by the players because of their inactivity.

They were a small studio without much revenue or notoriety until then, so they had an excuse. With the money they have now, there is no excuse for this game to be mismanaged.

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Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Improved AI
Balanced enemies magic resistance and armour to make mage compositions more viable
Added about 8 new combat encounters across the entire game
Added some minor quest and story content
Attempted to fix Arx (last act), which many complained about.

So, basically, the original DOS2 wasn't really complete when they released it 12 months out from its EA. I am worried the same will happen for this one, which means that it's almost better for me not to play BG3 immediately upon release.

Their QC system is terrible and I have no idea why they had people sign NDA to do play testing and they didn't find any of the stuff we found.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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I bet they got caught a bit off guard with the level of engagement (both in sales and in the forums). They are silent because they must have 1-2 people in charge of ALL forum posts.
This patch fixes things the developers can see without any feedback from Customer Support / QA / whoever is incharge of the forums. They probably didn't read the vast majority of the posts and definitely did not incorporate it in the work-plan for this patch.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see if it will be changed in future patches.

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Originally Posted by Abits
Can
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?


They added Ser Lora as a companion for the entire game, who is a Squirrel Knight. He follows you around and occasionally says stuff.

Some of the end-game quests and content in Arx were expanded upon and given some additional combat to make the story flow smoother. IMHO, it was just more stuff to kill for EXP and it didn't really tie the story together.

And now they added some sets of armour and other items that have its own story, but I haven't played it since they added this.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Can
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?


They added Ser Lora as a companion for the entire game, who is a Squirrel Knight. He follows you around and occasionally says stuff.

Some of the end-game quests and content in Arx were expanded upon and given some additional combat to make the story flow smoother. IMHO, it was just more stuff to kill for EXP and it didn't really tie the story together.

And now they added some sets of armour and other items that have its own story, but I haven't played it since they added this.

Lame. Sir Loras is the most useless thing I have ever seen in a video game


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Sure would be nice if they could use those stats and analytics on the forum conversations happening by the end users.

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Originally Posted by Sharet
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


You know aside from a few people this place is nearly an echo chamber and the population is quite small; you have the same 5-6 retards bitching about 5e not being RAW, you have a bunch of people requesting for X or Y class, a bunch of bugs that are probably going to be addressed first, and a handful of QoL.

Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. They have a ton more data than we do and we have no idea what their internal state is.


At the end of the day we represent a very small portion of the user base and most of the missing content isn't even released so the weight of our feedback is a bit diminished.

It's whatever though, if you want them to listen you'll need to get a nice tidal wave of criticism going and I think their focus is going to be more on the narrative side of things at the end of the day.


All true, what it bothers me tho it's that they incentives us, the "small player base", to report our feedback here in the forum and on steam. If they ask us to do so and then completely ignore our feedback then we should be rightfully pissed off.

I don't demand anything, they are not required to implement all the feedback just because, I'm just asking for them to consider and respond to our concerns (since we paid 60€). Why should we care how many times the dog was petted? It's cute and all but this isn't what updates should be about.


What bothers me is that you - and others! - seem to mistake the fact Larian asks for our feedback for the power to decide. It is one thing to listen and quite another to fully adopt whatever might be suggested. Which, I might add, is contradictory at the best of times. Some people may pretend their point of view is universally shared, but the truth is that we, as a group, tend to disagree with one another. Furthermore, has any of you considered that it might take a bit more time to implement various suggestions IF they are deemed worthwhile? Changes aren't trivial. Quite apart from possible balance concerns, anything that is changed may require new dialogue to be recorded, after said dialogue has been written in the first place, cinematics, plot changes, map changes and the list goes on.

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Well it is one thing to listen and say "Okey but we prefer it that way" and another to just ignore


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove others don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 27/10/20 06:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove other don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.


We signed up for the focus testing program to see what features are marketable on release. The grand vision of BG3 won't change, especially considering how little we know about the story beyond Act 1.

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Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=Thrythlind]

We signed up for the focus testing program to see what features are marketable on release. The grand vision of BG3 won't change, especially considering how little we know about the story beyond Act 1.


Yeah, by the time a game gets to this stage, a lot of it is set in stone.

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Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove other don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

Everything you said is completely valid and I think anyone who ever raised any suggestion or complaint in this forum should always keep it in mind.

However, there is power in the hardcore fanbase and I don't think it should be disregarded so casually. And like I said I would appreciate ANY kind of comment. Short list of possible comments I would have appreciated-
-"we saw your comments but there are just too much for us to properly respond right now"
-"we saw your comments and we disagree with them so we'll do things our way"
-"we didn't saw your comments yet"
What I don't appreciate is the complete indifference. They wrote a very long update. They could add a line about the discussion in the communities. But, like I said, it seems right now like we are little more than data to them.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Where are we actually standing? EA is a somewhat open term.
Reading through this post i start to fear that this company is like a lot of others, taking money and then just investing the minimal amount of that money and using the rest for other stuff.

Playing this it still compares a lot to an alpha build. Graphics and animation is annoying but the least of the problems this game has.

I sincerly hope this comes around. Seems very promising. laugh

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Originally Posted by Tethtoril
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...


Hmmm, that means we who don't like it would have to run around and write NO all over. But that discussion is already handled in another thread and I have come to the conclusion that Vometia don't want to see it spill over to other threads. So I will leave it at that smile

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Originally Posted by Tethtoril
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...

Comment of the year no doubt


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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