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Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by pill0ws
Drow are no longer evil and have embraced neo-liberal dogma


I think that there's a difference between people being inherently evil as in genetically evil and culturally evil.
The Drow are clearly culturally evil even in the game, that doesn't mean that every single Drow is.

Just like how just because America has a culture that glorifies violence and is full of religious fundamentalists doesn't mean that every American fantasise about being Charles Bronson in Death Wish and hates gay people.


Such "good" drow wouldn't pick Lolth as his patron in the first place. So?

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Originally Posted by Warlocke

Yeah, I also find it to be a bizarre thing to be upset about.

Always gonna be some folks trying to find something to be aggrieved about or buying into a culture war. At least its not as cringey as the steam forums in that regard here.

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Originally Posted by Lumign

Such "good" drow wouldn't pick Lolth as his patron in the first place. So?


I don’t think anybody has argued that a good Drow would worship Lolth.

Originally Posted by Kraydenvar
Originally Posted by Warlocke

Yeah, I also find it to be a bizarre thing to be upset about.

Always gonna be some folks trying to find something to be aggrieved about or buying into a culture war. At least its not as cringey as the steam forums in that regard here.


Nothing is as bad as the Steam forums. 😂

Last edited by Warlocke; 28/10/20 10:57 PM.
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As far as I know the only way for a Drow Male to get a spec of divinity among the Dark Seldarine that are loyal to Lolth would be through Selvetarm. I'm surprised to hear Lolth Clerics aren't unique to Female Drow though. I hope that is fixed in the future smile

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You can be anyone in this game. Even a bearded transgender gnome woman who worships Lolth. Choose who you've always wanted to be and make your dreams come true in the character editor.
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Kraydenvar
Originally Posted by Osprey39
@Svalr: I didn't say there was a problem with wanting to play a non-evil drow. I was just pointing out that non-evil drow are extremely rare and that there is no problem with the race being almost entirely evil in this fantasy world. I say that because this is not the first time that I have heard crap about Wizards softening the drow to be less evil because, ALLEGEDLY, they don't want the dark skinned race to be the bad guys. I don't know if that is true but I certainly hope it is not. I really grow tired of attempts to make fantasy worlds reflect the modern real world.

Eh, I don't feel anyway about it tbh. Like, Wizards being "having a dark skinned race inherently evil kinda cringe now that we think about it...given, you know..." is kind of understandable enough to not bother me too much. Things change.


Yeah, I also find it to be a bizarre thing to be upset about.


Just so you know, I'm not upset about it. That said, I don't like changing a well established fantasy world to reflect some facet of current day real life. In FR, typical drow are incredibly racist. Dwarves are pretty racist too but not quite as bad as drow. There's no need to change that because the prevailing thought in modern day real life is that there is nothing worse than being racist. FR is a fantasy world and it's supposed to be a place/idea where you can go to escape real life for awhile.

What I am trying to say is it's ok if things are acceptable in fantasy worlds that are not acceptable in real life.

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Originally Posted by Osprey39
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Kraydenvar
Originally Posted by Osprey39
@Svalr: I didn't say there was a problem with wanting to play a non-evil drow. I was just pointing out that non-evil drow are extremely rare and that there is no problem with the race being almost entirely evil in this fantasy world. I say that because this is not the first time that I have heard crap about Wizards softening the drow to be less evil because, ALLEGEDLY, they don't want the dark skinned race to be the bad guys. I don't know if that is true but I certainly hope it is not. I really grow tired of attempts to make fantasy worlds reflect the modern real world.

Eh, I don't feel anyway about it tbh. Like, Wizards being "having a dark skinned race inherently evil kinda cringe now that we think about it...given, you know..." is kind of understandable enough to not bother me too much. Things change.


Yeah, I also find it to be a bizarre thing to be upset about.


Just so you know, I'm not upset about it. That said, I don't like changing a well established fantasy world to reflect some facet of current day real life. In FR, typical drow are incredibly racist. Dwarves are pretty racist too but not quite as bad as drow. There's no need to change that because the prevailing thought in modern day real life is that there is nothing worse than being racist. FR is a fantasy world and it's supposed to be a place/idea where you can go to escape real life for awhile.

What I am trying to say is it's ok if things are acceptable in fantasy worlds that are not acceptable in real life.

Cultures are capable of shifting, both in the real world and in the context of a fantasy setting. There's no reason to believe that after hundreds of years of Lolth's infighting, no drow have had more than enough. Of course some have started building pockets of civilization that better suits their goals. It's written in the lore specifically that the infighting is designed to keep drow subservient, that Lolth doesn't trust men because of gods like Vhaeraun that preach equality, etc. I mean, Vhaeraun is also racist as fuck but there are drow gods like Eilistraee that are welcome among the Seladrine. Shit's been in the game since the 90s. These things already exist in some form, and if there's an outside motivation to shift things to something more gray, the argument shouldn't be "but this is how it's always been done!!"

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You're not wrong. Being able to be a male lolth drow cleric is lore breaking, beings that if you choose to be a lolth-sworn drow, the description tells you that you were born and brought up in that society. Drow men would be raised to be soldiers or they would become wizards. Priestess and Clerics have political power, and men are only for breeding and dying for their priestesses.

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I think Drow lore changed over time. The first official full description as far as I know (not far) was in 1978's Module D1-2, "Descent Into the Depths of the Earth" by Gygax. There it is written with incorrect punctuation:

"Most Drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known, No male Drow cleric is able to go beyond 4th level."

It's all about the spiders ... the Drow are spiderists.

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Originally Posted by Argyle
I think Drow lore changed over time. The first official full description as far as I know (not far) was in 1978's Module D1-2, "Descent Into the Depths of the Earth" by Gygax. There it is written with incorrect punctuation:

"Most Drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known, No male Drow cleric is able to go beyond 4th level."

It's all about the spiders ... the Drow are spiderists.


a surprise awaits you in release when your drow cleric will be level 4 throughout the game due to your choice at the beginning
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Originally Posted by deserk
This is a complete misconception in terms of Forgotten Realms lore. You could always play a drow male priest of Lolth in all editions of D&D. The problem is, most Lolthite societies would have you killed for it, since gender roles are very rigidly defined. However Lolth herself is a goddess of chaos, and who thrives on chaos, and if it serves her purpose, she might allow a drow priest to gain spells from her, provided the priest is in some way following her designs.


Absolutely this.

Originally Posted by Osprey39
@Svalr: I didn't say there was a problem with wanting to play a non-evil drow. I was just pointing out that non-evil drow are extremely rare and that there is no problem with the race being almost entirely evil in this fantasy world. I say that because this is not the first time that I have heard crap about Wizards softening the drow to be less evil because, ALLEGEDLY, they don't want the dark skinned race to be the bad guys. I don't know if that is true but I certainly hope it is not. I really grow tired of attempts to make fantasy worlds reflect the modern real world.


Not as rare as you seem to think. There's been good drow for a long time, just Drizzt managed to steal the spotlight. (I love Drizzt, honestly, but sometimes I wonder if his novels have been detrimental to the rest of the Forgotten Realms.)

Lolth is not the only drow deity. In fact, there is another deity in the list for BG3, Eilistraee, who is a Chaotic Good drow deity. She's had followers forever (because if she didn't have any, well, that's how gods die). So good or neutral drow are more common than you'd think. Additionally there are some drow cities where Lolth is not the premier deity or where the harsh matriarchal hierarchy does not exist (see Ched Nassad).

As for making them less evil because they're a dark skinned race, what nonsense are you talking about? In some ways, this is just making the drow more realistic - no one group of people is a monolith. Drow have had all sorts of "shades" to them from the get go - not just evil "shades".

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Is this a tribute to the fight against gender discrimination?

Yes Its just a "tribute song" not the actual fight.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Argyle
I think Drow lore changed over time. The first official full description as far as I know (not far) was in 1978's Module D1-2, "Descent Into the Depths of the Earth" by Gygax. There it is written with incorrect punctuation:

"Most Drow clerics are female, and no upper limit to their level of ability is known, No male Drow cleric is able to go beyond 4th level."

It's all about the spiders ... the Drow are spiderists.


a surprise awaits you in release when your drow cleric will be level 4 throughout the game due to your choice at the beginning
[Linked Image]


Now that would be truly something!

I approve!

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I'd like the sub race of drow to matter more. I'd like to start off as a lloth sworn drow to then be given the option to deny lloth. It makes sense that after consistent exposure to the surface world on this adventure that my character would question his beliefs in his deity.

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Originally Posted by pill0ws
Drow are no longer evil and have embraced neo-liberal dogma


Oh god oh fuck

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Originally Posted by Lumign
Quote
Drow are no longer evil and have embraced neo-liberal dogma


What? That S*CKS!!!

Did Disney buy Wizards of the Coast or what? What the hell happened?


No, WOTC IS WOTC under Hasbro.. Last 10 years social agenda sensibilities dictates their games. You can be HELL SURE they dictated some stuff to Larian in that BG3/DnD5 contract.
The last 10 years of Magic the gathering confirms this. And its getting worst.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 29/10/20 09:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zandilar
Originally Posted by deserk
This is a complete misconception in terms of Forgotten Realms lore. You could always play a drow male priest of Lolth in all editions of D&D. The problem is, most Lolthite societies would have you killed for it, since gender roles are very rigidly defined. However Lolth herself is a goddess of chaos, and who thrives on chaos, and if it serves her purpose, she might allow a drow priest to gain spells from her, provided the priest is in some way following her designs.


Absolutely this.

Originally Posted by Osprey39
@Svalr: I didn't say there was a problem with wanting to play a non-evil drow. I was just pointing out that non-evil drow are extremely rare and that there is no problem with the race being almost entirely evil in this fantasy world. I say that because this is not the first time that I have heard crap about Wizards softening the drow to be less evil because, ALLEGEDLY, they don't want the dark skinned race to be the bad guys. I don't know if that is true but I certainly hope it is not. I really grow tired of attempts to make fantasy worlds reflect the modern real world.


Not as rare as you seem to think. There's been good drow for a long time, just Drizzt managed to steal the spotlight. (I love Drizzt, honestly, but sometimes I wonder if his novels have been detrimental to the rest of the Forgotten Realms.)

Lolth is not the only drow deity. In fact, there is another deity in the list for BG3, Eilistraee, who is a Chaotic Good drow deity. She's had followers forever (because if she didn't have any, well, that's how gods die). So good or neutral drow are more common than you'd think. Additionally there are some drow cities where Lolth is not the premier deity or where the harsh matriarchal hierarchy does not exist (see Ched Nassad).


Your comment piqued my curiosity so I did some reading up on the Fandom Forgotten Realms wiki. According to the page for Drow on there, it does state that approximately 15% of drow were not evil but of that 15%, most were neutral, not good. It does mention Ellistraee being worshipped by the ones that were actually good but "the morally neutral drow's worship was split among Ghaunadaur, Lolth, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun." I would be interested to learn what other notable good drow you are aware of besides the ones I mentioned earlier because the entry doesn't really mention any individuals in that category.

I also looked up Ched Nesad on there: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ched_Nasad since I knew that is where Rai-guy that I mentioned earlier is from.

According to that entry, and it's footnoted pretty well, Lloth is or (I guess was) indeed the primary deity there and the city was actually founded with Lloth's blessing by exiles from House Nasadra of Menzoberranzan. The article mentions no other deities besides Lloth and additionally states that the prevailing alignment of the city was NE and CE. It also mentions that while it was a matriarchal society, it wasn't as strict a matriarchy as Menzoberranzan so it concurs with you on that.

Quote

As for making them less evil because they're a dark skinned race, what nonsense are you talking about? In some ways, this is just making the drow more realistic - no one group of people is a monolith. Drow have had all sorts of "shades" to them from the get go - not just evil "shades".



So in my comments above I capitalized the word 'allegedly' precisely because that is just what I have been hearing on forums pertaining to this game. I haven't been involved in following lore changes from Wizards in quite some time so I don't have first hand knowledge of how the drow have evolved from strictly evil NPCs to what they are portrayed as today. I've seen it mentioned several times, had it just been a single instance I would have discounted the validity of it but it seems to be at least a somewhat widely held belief.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion as it is interesting. Last night I didn't even play the game, just sat on here and discussed it which I also enjoy so thanks for indulging me.

Last edited by Osprey39; 29/10/20 09:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lumign
Originally Posted by SimDoughnut
OP If it makes you feel any better Elves still apparently can't grow facial hair, but Halflings of both sexes can now. So there is that.

Have Fun smile!


First thing I noticed was that facial hair option was not barred for human women... (and it... works... as intended?....)

Just one question tho, did Larian do it because they thought it was funny or was it because of some law in Canada?


Coding in restrictions and checks for specific genders is extra work, you get brownie points with certain peoples, and other peoples can do bearded ladies for a laugh (and dwarves! Bearded female dwarves!) so I'm personally in the "0 f**ks given" camp for that

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Wow!! People get worked up over the smallest things these days............Its a game and you can be a cleric of a "good" deity and still be a murder hobo because your choice of a god is just fluff for this game......same goes for male drow being clerics of the spider queen......its fluff. If it bothers you then don't play one

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Originally Posted by Xatasha
Wow!! People get worked up over the smallest things these days............Its a game and you can be a cleric of a "good" deity and still be a murder hobo because your choice of a god is just fluff for this game......same goes for male drow being clerics of the spider queen......its fluff. If it bothers you then don't play one


It bothers people because it shows how little Larian cares about FR lore. Although its very possible that this is just possible because of early access. Its not as if it can't be easily implemented.
And at least in other D&D games I know clerics (paladins, monks) lost their powers when their alignment changed to something not compatible.

Last edited by Ixal; 29/10/20 11:27 AM.
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