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Originally Posted by PMSbloodrage
One area I feel definitely needs attention is enemy reactions when attacked by a stealthed character.

I’m finishing up the Underdark running the whole thing with just a Drow rogue in my party without any of the npc’s. I’ve only rested in camp once to boot. This is primarily due to the fact that monsters just stand there and do nothing if they don’t see who’s attacking them, so you can just snipe and hide until all of the enemies are dead. It’s a little time consuming, but it’s actually easier than running a full party 4.
I’d like to see monsters / enemies roam in a random direction if they’re being attacked and don’t see the attacker. This will at least force the player to reposition and potentially lose a “prime sniping spot”. It would also create the chance the monster / enemy would randomly advance toward the player.

I’d just like to see a little more difficulty when fighting 2 minotaurs at the same time than watching them stand there and become horsey pin-cushions.


Definitely agree that would be a nice improvement, but I really didn't feel like that was a think that was known for existing in DoS and also *not* known for existing in BG. You could do it in both games and I haven't seen much discussion referencing a lack of response to stealth characters in the DoS 3 discussions. If I see it crop up more I'm happy to add it.

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I love this list.
I love the idea.
I love the thread.
I hope Larian will pay attention.

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Excellent list. I like to think i have an eye for detail and i overlooked several of these. Larian needs to see this list and adjust every single one of them.


Rogue or wizard? Why not both! Rogue/wizard/shadowdancer.
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I've shamelessly stolen from multiple authors but Endolex deserves special recognition for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement

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Excellent theme.
I'm not saying I don't like the actual one.

But I'll prefer this one to the male voice we have.

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I wanna ask,

technically which of the list can be changed by mod, and which can't be (or very difficult)?

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Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.

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Originally Posted by coredumped
Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.

Which choices? What if the choices they choose to run with run counter to what you chose? Then there's the whole "It's Act I" thing. I have yet to play any video game that laid out it's entire narrative that fast. That's akin to "why didn't we have to "take back Earth" in Mass Effect 1" to me.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by coredumped
Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.

Which choices? What if the choices they choose to run with run counter to what you chose? Then there's the whole "It's Act I" thing. I have yet to play any video game that laid out it's entire narrative that fast. That's akin to "why didn't we have to "take back Earth" in Mass Effect 1" to me.


By choices I mean overall design decisions, not things you choose as the player.

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Great list op.

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Most of this list is kinda useless. some of these things are not bad to have, some are genuine problems, and some are somewhere in between. but without any context, I'm not sure what you expect Larian to do with it.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

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Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

+1 wanted to write it but was too lazy lol


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?

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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

I will ignore several general responses you provided:
- Responses that questioned why something was a complaint, because none of them are complaints.
- Responses that some things should have been compressed because I'm trying to strike a balance of including both General and Specific factors, with specific factors being broken out when there appears to be sufficient focus on it in this forum and Discord.

Lastly, my responses are not in numerical order but rather in the order you provided.

#29. This is categorically false, least of which because the Beast Master Ranger *in the EA* already runs into this problem by not being able to have their Find Familiar and Animal Companion at the same time. Never mind when spells like Conjure Animals, Find Steed, etc. comes into play. This restriction to 1 summon is a feature of DoS and does not exist in BG, where you were only limited by the capabilities of the engine at the time. Do note, that the DoS engine is perfectly capable of having more than 1 companion (Glut's army), so the restriction is clearly intentional by Larian.

#35. Already breaking my rule above, but the complete overabundance of British accents is also something I meant to include, but decided to make it specifically regarding Malady. You will notice I did not write the factor that they reused Amelia Tyler. It's that they had her do the *exact* Malady voice. Having the exact same voice from DoS in your ear, without any changes at all, is objectively a factor that makes you feel like the game is more DoS and BG. Amelia is an incredibly talented voice actress who is more than capable of varying her voice to be a different character. The choice to have her repeat the sounds of Malady was a conscious decision and consequently is a factor on the list.

#46. First, that is incorrect. D&D is not balanced around a 4 person party. Specifically, it if balanced for between 3-5 (based on the DMG), and WotC published adventures assume 4-5 players. Moreover, the BG series is well known for being 6 characters, while DoS is known for being 4 characters. Neither game has those as exclusive factors, but both those statements are true. So on the list it goes. Ironically, making it be 5 characters would make the game more 'unique', though 6 would make it more BG.

#48. This factor was tweaked slightly to better emphasize the specific factor. See the previous posts in this thread.

#58. You are correct regarding the capability to do the math....except no. Because the math requires you to know both your to-hit chance and the enemy's AC values, neither of which are immediately apparent. Again, not complaints, just factors. You do bring up a good point though that I will add to the factors, which is that you have full access to the stats of the enemy just by Examining the target (with the caveat that DoS did require you to level up a particular skill to get more information, while BG did not allow that at all).

#61. Incorrect, which leads me to believe you don't really know the rules of 5e. Which is fine because that's not what this discussion is about. Companions block movement in DoS, they don't in BG.

#66. That is both wrong (you can see creatures well before you party can) and not what Fog of War references.

#70. Admittedly I knew 'aimbotting' is not an accurate term, taking suggestions on something that better conveys the factor. Enemy AI perfect knowledge? This remains a factor, more so because DoS literally patched this exactly factor because every enemy had essentially Max stats for knowing the characters statistics. But it still famously happens in DoS and does not happen in BG, so it's a factor.

#17. Normal enemies refers to enemies that do nothing more than attack with their weapon, without any special moves, abilities, consumables, or throwables. BG had plenty of enemies like this, DoS practically had none. So its a factor.

#10. Not really sure how to respond to this besides agreeing with your statement of facts but disagreeing with the conclusions you draw? I listed roughly 10 elements to this factor (start as prisoner, on a vessel, mentally based enemies, etc.). BG 3 shares all 10 elements with DoS. BG 1 shares zero of those elements. BG 2 shares two as best I can count (prisoner, freed by outside attack). So across 20 possible times to have those elements occur in the introductory areas of BG 1 and BG 2, it occurred 2 times. In DoS it correct 10 out of 10, in BG 3, also 10 out of 10. That's why it's a factor, and that's why the most commonly typed response in chat when Swen did the first gameplay reveal was BEACH BEACH BEACH.

#53. Did you actually play BG 1 and BG 2? You could literally make a party of entirely custom characters.

#56. Again, this is just wrong. Here is a link to the books provided in the BG series. Please just do a spot sampling. History/lore Books in DoS, and BG 3, are a few sentences at most and usually contain text in < > brackets to indicate a summary. Compare that to your spot sampling, where there are several paragraphs of lore for each book in BG. Ironically, this can easily flip from a DoS factor to a BG factor if Larian just copy + pastes the lore text and then updates them based on 'current events' at this point in the Faerun timeline.

Hopefully I didn't miss any!

I assume that most of it are complaints because thats the nature that I have seen them be referenced in. If you mention a 4 man party 99 out of 100 times thats in reference that bg1 and 2 had 6 man parties and people want to complain about it. So yes, if I see that in a topic about why it feels to much like DOS compared to BG I will assume that its a complaint.

The same applied to most of the things where I assumed that it was a complaint. If it wasent one it wasent very clear because a more in depth description was missing.

Re your point about 29: I also offered that that it might be a balance issue. Infact I started with that point... I think its either a leftover code from DOS or done for balance. In 3.5 dnd pet classes were also considered to be OP so maybe the devs were aware of that and were trying to avoid it beeing an issue again?

Re 35. I disagree. Dont find it an issue at all.

Re46: when something is balanced for 3 to 5 players, the avarage of that is 4. So in that sense, yes. Dnd IS based around 4 players. Its simular in the sense that both bg3 and DOS have 4 man parties. Sure. But I find the vein popping rage induced rants that this game isent bg because it doesent have 6 man parties to be very facinating. Facinating and probably unhealthy if people are so invested in that party size....

Re58: people at the table generally catch on quikly what the AC needed to hit is. If a 13 misses but a 14 hits it doesent take a scientist to figure out what the AC is. Some DM's just tell the players what the AC is to improve the pace of combat. Point is 'the players wouldnt know either' can only go so far as an argument. As is it shows the player much needed information that they need to make informed decisions. At the table the dm might say 'you see a warrior brandished in shining plate armor accompanied by a tall grey haired wizard in robes. Alongside them stands a gnome in stylish studded leather armour' or something simular. It conveyes information that the players can take in to determine potential AC's (armour descriptions) where in bg3 you dont have that per se. I mean you see it rather then hear it and that doesent necessarily get the same information across. Specially if they have several skins for the same armour. The players needs to have some form of visual que imo to know which target is less armoured. I think Larian went withe just showing us the AC. What would you suggest how they could improve this?

Re 61: if you want I can cite you the rule and page in the rulebook that cites this. But im currently not at home so youd have to wait for that one.

Re:66. what about it is wrong? Also seeing them just before your guys would see them allows you a small window to respond what you just found. But it is 100% reliant on having line of sight to it.

Re 70: saying that the AI doesent focus your squishies in bg is so laughably false now im wondering if you played it... AI does and SHOULD focus your weaker teammates first.

Re 17: if thats your description of normal enemies its still false. Ive seen plenty use just normal attacks even if the number of consumables used in battle is to high.

Re 10: In BG2 you start as a prisoner by Irenicus, who frequently (mentally) tortured you, his stronghold is attacked by shadow thieves allowing you to escape. While his ship doesent sink because he dident hold us captive on one. After we escape our escape is also complicated by our half sister beeing captured alongside our captor by the cowled wizards. So ALOT more points in common then just 2. If he held us captive on a boat the comparison would probably be a 10/10 because all the things not on the list are tied to the location where he held us captive. And another thing... this kind of intro is a story telling trope. Its not a DOS thing per se...

Re53: Seriously whats with the insults? You literally had to go in multiplayer mode and assign all slots to yourself to make a party of 6 members. It was possible but wasent the traditional way to play it. Try launching a single player game and tell me how many characters you get to make.

Re 56: I dont need to click on your link mate. I played the damn games. Most of the things you found were a few paragraphs long, or a single page for notes/messages that you found. There were some longer reads but its not like every book you found was an actual book. Granted they had more text the the books in DOS or bg3, sure. But not by all that much. Nor would I categorize bg3 a DOS game because the lorebooks..... its just kind of a silly argument in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?

Nothing wrong just keep your expectations real


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?

Simple, really, define "genuine BG3". This is the first time the game's been made, so it's not like we can point to the "actual" BG 3 and say "make it like this one". BG 3 will not make or break the 5e system, so that's not it, and for those of us that quit TT gaming with the introduction of 4e, or those that never played TT, it's irrelevant to whether we'll enjoy the game or not. So that's not "genuine BG 3" either. If I had to point to something, right now, that was, it would be this game. Why? Because it's the actual BG 3.

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[/quote]
Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ? [/quote]
Simple, really, define "genuine BG3". This is the first time the game's been made, so it's not like we can point to the "actual" BG 3 and say "make it like this one". BG 3 will not make or break the 5e system, so that's not it, and for those of us that quit TT gaming with the introduction of 4e, or those that never played TT, it's irrelevant to whether we'll enjoy the game or not. So that's not "genuine BG 3" either. If I had to point to something, right now, that was, it would be this game. Why? Because it's the actual BG 3.[/quote]

Excatly-- this is BG3-- WoTC sought out Larian to make the game because they wanted it to be similar to DoS2 but with 5e rules... can't get more 'genuine' than that.

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In the end it's a business thing, and based on the number of og BG fans who come here to complain it's not bg3 it was a very smart business thing. When I think about it I'm a little surprised actually. I would have thought that most Larian fans are old BG fans but I guess not


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Demoulius, I'm sry I didn't read all your last post but it's for a good reason I hope you will understand.
You absolutely don't get the point about this thread.

Here is why I stopped to read after 4 or 5 points...
You said :
Originally Posted by Demoulius

1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?


This post is NOT ABOUT COMPLAIN, it's about showing what didn't feel like BG. This is not about COMPLAINING, this is about RECORDING what make BG3 not feel like a BG-game.

So you should have said : "1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok." and that's all, cause there is nothing more to say.
I did somthing funny. I search the word "complain" in your post. You used it more than 20 times
How many times the OP used it in his post ? Not even once.
Did you get it ? Most of your post is off-topic and most of it just confirm what the OP said.


You are completely this guy who wants to convince us to like tomatoes when we just said tomatoes are not onions...

God, how I miss onions too...

PS:
saying :
- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.

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