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Vhaldez #720124 28/10/20 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Azarielle


In the end Kagha is just a person in over her head - consistent with desperate people in desperate circumstances theme of the Druid Grove. Ultimately it all boils down to something similar to "Wyll dilemma" whether or not the end justifies the means and I'm guessing we'll be seeing a lot of that also in regard to our Ilithid powers.

So to me she's actually very well written, once you have the full picture, but as in life you might not always get there, so that's fine too.


Originally Posted by Nyanko
Khaga is an interesting character because she offers multiple outcomes depending on how the player wants to deal with her. The narration straight up makes her looking quite the villain with the attempt to save the child purposely left behind a steep die roll, even though she's actually not directly involved in her death.

I agree with Azarielle. All things considered, she's a well written character, multilayered and contrived by her allegiances.



I don't agree and think her character does not fit her surroundings but if that is later handwaved away by her or Olodan being an agent of the Absolute then I guess this thread is null and void.

Vhaldez #721334 29/10/20 05:43 AM
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I agree with Azarielle. I think Kagha is an interesting, multilayered and well written character. When you first met her you might think she's a Disney villain but if you try to learn more about her motivations you get the picture little by little.
She's fallible, conflicted, credible. I like her character a lot.
My feelings about her have evolved continually through my game, from hate (first meeting with arabella), curiosity (when you deceal some cracks in her), disdain (when you find those notes about the shadows druids) to pity (when you redeem her, talk with her and understand she has been manipulated).

I think she is rather overprotective than purely xenophobic.
What is sure is that she is weak, easily manipulated, despite her stong-willed apparence.

PS: sorry for the mistakes, english is not my first langage smile

Last edited by Pélagie; 30/10/20 02:23 AM.
Vhaldez #721861 29/10/20 04:22 PM
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I like Kahga as a heel. I think her facial capture work is really good for it. I agree that the food shortage thing is a bit much given the existence of conjure food. I still think the conflict is fine generally.

I feel like the kid should just end up captured and I feel like her being killed is a real lame way to force the player into a conflict he can't handle. I feel like the child dying should be more from some attempt to rescue or failed acrobatics roll or something like that. Though other than that I don't have a huge issue with the conflict, I do have a problem with both sides being surprisingly fine with genocide of the other.

Vhaldez #721874 29/10/20 04:34 PM
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Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.

Vhaldez #722319 29/10/20 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez


My counterpoint is this line. Does this sound like druids to you? How is the "simple solution" not to help these people on their way?


Based on bg2 lore it's not surprising to see druids in this case where they get corrupted and do stupid shit.

I mean kagha indeed is presented in a very strange way. Like you really need to explore to find yourselves reasons to help her. Even if you are " evil" you're not stupid. Killing refugees from hell (you're evil so for all that matters you don't care if you side with demons) doesn't give you anything. In theory.

But one of the thieflings in the village can give you a soul coin and reveals she's chased by a demon. Raphael gets in contact with you. I can see it coming where in ACT 2 you end up going to Avernus and someone is like " Oh you killed those guys that ran off? We're friends now. "

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.

Clearly Kagha doesn't make it easy to understand her, doesn't let you close enough to start thinking " she might be right". But deep inside her heart she doesn't believe she's right too so ... it makes sense to some extent. It's a really strange quest and I have to admit it feels like something is missing. But I think that's PRECISELY because something is missing. Like the whole city of Baldur's Gate XD


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
pill0ws #722410 30/10/20 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.

That... isn't how it works in D&D. Their very existence is due to demons breeding with other races, primarily humans. Most tieflings have never even seen hell themselves.


Rogue or wizard? Why not both! Rogue/wizard/shadowdancer.
virion #722420 30/10/20 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.

Warlocke #722421 30/10/20 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Orbax #722457 30/10/20 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.


Yeah it isn't but remember this was all an answer to "Vhaldez " :p My point is pretty much be it BG3 by Larian or BG2 by Bioware druids were kinda aggressive at first. I'm referencing BG2 cause i don't play tabletop ^^

It didn't surprise me the slightest when i heard what's going on in the grove.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
Vhaldez #722469 30/10/20 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.


Well we find out the grove is almost completely out of food. It literally cant support the liefling's any longer meanwhile Halsin is off investigating the parakites

virion #722481 30/10/20 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.


Yeah it isn't but remember this was all an answer to "Vhaldez " :p My point is pretty much be it BG3 by Larian or BG2 by Bioware druids were kinda aggressive at first. I'm referencing BG2 cause i don't play tabletop ^^

It didn't surprise me the slightest when i heard what's going on in the grove.


Haha I was just kidding around!


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Vhaldez #722594 30/10/20 07:54 AM
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Late to the party, but yeah, Kagha is like two characters packaged into one - a neutral evil facade of ruthlessness, or a neutral slide down the wrong path. I suspect many never side with her in any situation, even when the devs wanted people to explore the more evil potential of the story.

I think this rather overt villainy is to juxtapose an extreme towards the Tieflings. In terms of stereotypes, wood elves are supposed to be free-spirited, good aligned characters, whilst Tieflings are drawn to evil due to their hellish ancestry. Larian have decided to flip the stereotype to create a cartoonishly evil proposition where elves are evil, and a child is held at fang point to prove a point.

The simplest way to fix this is to add other options to diffuse the situation, especially with lower difficulty checks. Propose an alternative punishment like sweeping leaves, actually allow someone with Speak to Animals to persuade the snake (and give the a snake charmer achievement or something), or even allow certain Clerics (there isn't an option for Silvanus or Nature Clerics, though that might change) (or Druids when they get implemented). Curiously enough, Wyll has a slightly different dialogue option, but otherwise doesn't change the DC18 check.

Beyond that, I wouldn't mind having the redeemed Kagha as an optional companion for the party, though that obviously has three problems - the first, is that maybe only a quarter of players will have the option, the second being she doesn't have a tadpole and thus isn't centrally tied to the plot, and third being the voice resources needed to make her relevant when they could focus their efforts on many, many other things.

virion #722927 30/10/20 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


Mfw BGIII whitewashes druids.

Vhaldez #723901 31/10/20 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Reddit
The first time you see Zevlor and Wyll protect the Grove and no one else even tries to protect the Grove too busy doing the Ritual. Even when you convince Kagha to stop the Ritual after exposing her. They still hide in their caves.



Forgot to mention if you never recruit him Wyll just stands at the gate and refuses to defend the Grove a second time. Out of Character.



The only time I see the Druids show up is when you side with the Goblins but to defend their gates nah they will never bother with gate defense even when the Goblins are outside and the Gates gives them a defenders advantage.

Quote
Unfortunately this is MEANT to be - even if you redeem Kahga, all the people that were following her to the Shadow Druids actually still complain at you for stepping into their business, saying that you haven't "swayed them" or that you "shouldn't be messing with Druid business" -- hell, most their idle dialogue is: I'll drive these outsiders out to protect our grove, they shouldn't be here.

They're only curtailed if you kill Kahga without redeeming her, realising the fatal mistake of siding with the Shadow Druids.

I'd like it if Larian made the ones that are Vehemently against her and the Shadow Druids (Rath, the old lady, the Elf that's working with the Bird outside, 1-2 of the younger Druids) join you up top - but as it is now, I'd say about 2/3rds of the Druids actually believe Kagha is right and were looking forward to driving the Tieflings out of their midst.

How did it get to this point? Is Halsin just a terrible but idealistic leader that everyone secretly despises?

Vhaldez #723908 31/10/20 12:51 PM
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I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

As it is Kagha is an excellent NPC to have: you can fight her, stop her plans from coming to fruition (free Halsin or steal the idol of Silvanus) or make her see the error of her ways and redeem her before she does anything irredemable. And before hating on her too much keep in mind this game gives you the chance to slaughter all of the refugees, children included, and all of the druids, while alligning yourself with a bloodthirsty band of murderous drows and goblins, an outcome that actually makes Kagha's imminent allignment shift a tad more understandable I believe.

Last edited by Tulkash01; 31/10/20 12:56 PM.
Tulkash01 #723957 31/10/20 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulkash01
I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Tuco #724038 31/10/20 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Tulkash01
I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.


Exactly. Not every NPC needs to be likeable, expecially not at first. Kagha MIGHT go down the evil path or MIGHT NOT depending on your party's actions. It just depends on what you want to do with her and the kind of character you want your hero to be.

Tuco #724385 31/10/20 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.


You can also see in her face that she immediately regrets everything when the kid dies. Even with the kind of rough animations the game has right now it looks like she's fighting back tears before she regains control of herself and goes back to putting on a brave face to seem like she's still in charge.

Last edited by SaurianDruid; 31/10/20 09:10 PM.
Vhaldez #724392 31/10/20 09:17 PM
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OP, I have a question about Kagha.
If we take her side and kill the tieflings, and then kill the goblin leaders, will we have a party with the Shadow druids?
Or should we not kill the goblin leaders in this case .. How does the plot evolve if we help the Kahga?

Warlocke #724478 31/10/20 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


Actually no. There's just evidence Kagha had been contacted by Shadow Druids from Cloakwood suggesting she could change her alliance to their circle and was almost ready to give in (she can actually do so if you fail to convince her it's a mistake). The person mentioned in the note, Faldorn, was a playable NPC in BG1 (an evil Shadow Druid from the Cloakwood) and an antagonist in BG2. Note that the shadow druids are actually present near Kagha the whole time as they are shapeshifted as 3 mices and only reveal themselves when you present Kagha with evidence of her dealings with them.


About Shadow Druids: they are evil druids that think the only way to preserve the natural order is getting rid of civilization altogether killing people and taking away the means sentient races use to impose their will on the world. They are basically violent ecoterrorists.

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