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I want night time simply for the atmosphere. The difference it makes in bringing the world alive is MASSIVE.

The eternal day is really weird. You can't wait for night time to go steal something but have to do the sneaking in broad daylight.

Areas turning more dangerous during the night makes the world feel dangerous and everything more like an adventure.

Going to meet some shady characters at night is completely different to meeting shady characters during the day.

Sunset and sunrise is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Tuv
Dragon Age had frozen in time maps and it was incredibly strange to return to such stagnating maps.


DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.

It's so sad Larian are opposed to dynamic world, it seems to go against some of their design goals for BG3 and it's just lots of wasted potential on so many aspects of the game... Visuals, atmosphere, immersion, mechanics, creative problem solving, world reactivity...

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.


The more I play, the more I find myself missing nighttime. I would rather see this system than the always daytime we have currently. Of course a proper day/night cycle would be even better.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Tuv
Dragon Age had frozen in time maps and it was incredibly strange to return to such stagnating maps.


DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.

It's so sad Larian are opposed to dynamic world, it seems to go against some of their design goals for BG3 and it's just lots of wasted potential on so many aspects of the game... Visuals, atmosphere, immersion, mechanics, creative problem solving, world reactivity...


Yeah...I skipped the second one
I was thinking about the 3rd Dragon Age and being welcomed by the same god-rays every time etc

I really wish Larian the best so they can grow with this project, it's a good opportunity to add even more depth to the freedom we already have in the game.
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.

Last edited by Tuv; 29/10/20 11:03 PM.
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Per-rest abilities and resting has been an issue of every cRPG adaptation I have seen. Not sure, what cosmetic day&night cycle is supposed to do to address this issue. Universal camp is a strange concept, indeed.

From existing titles Pillars of Eternity had my favourite solution - carrying capacity of two camping supplies. While it didn’t prohibit players from spamming rest if they were willing to track back to town to buy more, it did allow for devs to pace how much intended rest there is per dungeon.

I would be curious to see per-rest system applied in a structure designed around that idea - perhaps like something similar to Dark Souls bonfires - resting in specific places only, and not being able to take one fight at a time. That would restfully in a very different game though.

Last edited by Wormerine; 29/10/20 11:13 PM.
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The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.

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Yep, the lack of a day/night cycle is such a huge missed opportunity.

As others have said, day/night has such an understated impact on immersion, and the mechanics of light in D&D mean that night time actually has some really interesting gameplay implications.

A day/night cycle and an Elderscrolls-esque "wait" feature could make for such engaging decision-making with regards to sneaking and darkvision. It could also be tied to the short rest mechanic, which currently feels completely immersion breaking (I hated the bed-roll in DOS2).

Day/night as a component for limiting long rests feels both realistic and in-keeping with 5e rules (and frankly the rest system is probably my biggest concern with regards to gameplay in BG3 at the moment).

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Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.

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Originally Posted by Tuv
Yeah...I skipped the second one


As a side note, I'd recommend at least giving DA2 a shot. YMMV, but I was pleasantly surprised with 2 (it DOES have a lot of problems... but overall is a decent game) and very disappointed with Inquisition.

Originally Posted by Tuv
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.


Ahaha, now I imagine guys at Larian suddenly reconsider upon seeing this.

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Originally Posted by Lumign
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.


So far Larian was using somewhat different system for creating urgency. Instead of counting time, they were counting completed quests. So you would need to prioritize quests over each other, not do them in a given time span. And I hope they will adopt it for day/night cycle as well.

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To be honest, I'd rather have no day/night cycle than the ridiculous accelerated one that many games have.

I've never understood why - provided the game is played at a realistic pace - there's ever any reason to have the day be shorter than approximately 12 real in-game hours. Which means that - since most people don't spent 12 RL hours on a single map - hat you shouldn't realistically see a change in time from day to night if you begin adventuring at dawn.

Now, of course, you can rest whenever, and if you had a game with overland travel (which I would prefer to the giant map) you could arrive at the map at any particular time. But given the constraints the game has - that you go to bed in the evening, and you begin adventuring at dawn - it makes a certain kind of sense you never see the sun go down.

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Originally Posted by Corren
D&D is balanced largely around the question of resource management, namely day&night cycle.

When playing, this is handled by the DM along with the players through narration. But in a game like BG3, it becomes a little more difficult.

One issue I encountered while playing was the ever present feeling of cheating the game anytime I pressed the "rest" button. Because yes, resting in D&D is ALSO a resource to be managed.

And so, since I can rest anytime I want, reset my spells after every fight, engage every ambush with full hp with no cost whatsoever and succeed this way much more often... Well I feel like I deserve none of these successes.
"Well, then, just rest less often, you absolute inane QQ machine", you'll tell me (in more gentle words I hope). Your advice would be sane. But what do I gain by not resting? And what interval is the right one? Who decides? I have no DM to turn to, and the game gives me no obligation, no limitation, nothing to aim for. I just limped away from a fight against a horde of goblins, closed the makeshift door behind me and blew off the torches best I could. Now, surely, the goblins are looking inside every room to find me. But the magic button teleports me in a magical forest, where my magic campsite awaits, with weirdly uncomfortable-looking sleeping bags.
Right now, the campsite feels like it's nothing short of a level 6 "Druid Grove" spell or a level 7 "Mordenkainen Magnificent Mansion" spell. Only it's FAR better, as it's completely free and doesn't require casting time or anything.

Anyway, I'm belaboring the point. Bottom line is: it feels weird to not have days and nights. It causes me to second guess every single spellcast, leads me to feel like I don't deserve my successes and kinda breaks the spell&rest system a little bit. As it is, it's a poor way of managing resources.


Interesting, I had just that thought last night. I do wonder if there is a way that they can limit the number of times you can camp-per X hours-and perhaps buff short rest a bit to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Tuv
Yeah...I skipped the second one


As a side note, I'd recommend at least giving DA2 a shot. YMMV, but I was pleasantly surprised with 2 (it DOES have a lot of problems... but overall is a decent game) and very disappointed with Inquisition.

Originally Posted by Tuv
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.


Ahaha, now I imagine guys at Larian suddenly reconsider upon seeing this.


You inspired me and I decided to try to recreate the druid grove at night. Below is the result. I think it looks kinda neat despite me being straight up incompetent when it comes to photoshop.


Original screenshot:
https://i.imgur.com/R8TSS1G.jpg

At night version:
https://i.imgur.com/xbdhgnG.png

Last edited by virion; 30/10/20 06:37 AM.

Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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I agree with the OP* 100%, but sadly this is also the single flaw of the game I have the least amount of confidence Larian will ever address, especially because they've been rather explicit from the beginning (and adamant I would say) that they consider a day/night cycle a waste of resources and something too complex to do properly.

Which is a bit embarrassing, when you realize the size and scope of this production and the fact that in most other games with a fraction of this budget it was the standard for 20 years.

It's also funny as an excuse, because frankly even "doing it half assed" would still be leagues better than not doing it at all because "too difficult".

P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.



*except for the complains against rest abuse: I simply never rest more than absolutely necessary in most of these games, it doesn't even matter if I can or not, I don't like abusing it.

Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 07:18 AM.
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While I would like night cycles . . . . I only want them if they have some meaningful effect.

NPC's need to go to sleep or do other things. New monsters/wildlife need to come out and play. New quests need to become available. etc.

If all that is done then night cycles are fantastic . . . but its a lot of work and I can understand why Larian hasn't implemented it (yet) .

I would bet money its on their list of 'things we would like to do'. So hopefully it will happen.

But if they don't have the time and resources to do it right then its better they skip it. Just making the sky dark doesn't cut it.

Right now I'd just be really happy if dead bodies and blood disappeared when you do a long rest.

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Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


It's primarily a game. Time limits never work very well for games (or aren't liked).
You cannot add time limits without making the player feel punished for exploring, even aside from the fact that it will encourage players to avoid as many fights as possible, which should not be the goal.

Rest limits are also problematic as players are different, not to mention the possible team compositions.
Rest limited by objects seems not such a bad idea, but remembering how he was disliked in PoE1 I don't know if it's a good idea.
The time limit is also a tragic idea as it actively encourages the player to minimize the game.
It seems to me that the best idea would be to prevent a long rest in certain places, as it currently works in the witch's hideout, and also when there are enemies nearby.

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Originally Posted by trengilly
While I would like night cycles . . . . I only want them if they have some meaningful effect.

It's something I've read around a lot and I guess it's supposed to be deep and insightful, but the more I think about it, the less convincing I found it.

Because quite frankly even without ANY variation to NPC scheduling/placement it would be an added value even simply for introducing a more dynamic environment (variable lighting conditions, different monster encounters based on the time of the day, etc) and the mere notion of passing time, getting tired, needing a proper rest, etc.
What's hilarious to me is that Larian removed all these factors entirely... And now they are basically struggling to reintroduce them and give them some meaning in other forms (the fact that you can miss events if you rest at an inappropriate time to suggest we aren't frozen in time, your characters occasionally claiming to be "tired" (even if apparently unaffected by it), the convoluted instanced camping to suggest the passing of days and that a "night" exists", etc).


Quote
I would bet money its on their list of 'things we would like to do'. So hopefully it will happen.

Uh, no. Unless they'll change their mind (which is unlikely so late in production) it's literally on their list "We are not going to bother because it's a lot of work".

Originally Posted by Rhobar121

It's primarily a game. Time limits never work very well for games (or aren't liked).

Limits and rules are what define a game.
Without restrictions that define the rules, you don't have a game but a toy.


Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 08:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lumign
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.



I understand this.

But they wrote a story with urgency. You can't have both urgency and meaningless passing of endless time.

I tried to rest as little as possible because of the tadpole and the druids, and Lae'zel aggressively pointing out how resting is bad. The game repeatedly told me "bad things are happening, act fast". I was hugely let down by the fake urgency.

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Reasonably forgiving (and explicitly stated) time limits on some optional goals would make most games better, actually.
But it can be a hard sell because some people have something bordering a panic attack at the mere notion of facing one, it doesn't matter if it's a senseless reaction and any barely competent playthrough will have no issues.

For an example of a GOOD implementation, I loved that in Pathfinder Kingmaker you can get a HEFTY reward (the first +2 magic sword in the game) if you complete the first major goal in the game under a month.
This also encouraged the player to actually travel light and use the rest function only when necessary.

Then again Kingmaker is also an example of putting in the game HIDDEN time limits that could punish you unreasonably hard, even leading to a game over if you missed the deadline.
Which is bullshit and makes the whole thing a mixed bag.





Last edited by Tuco; 30/10/20 09:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by virion
You inspired me and I decided to try to recreate the druid grove at night. Below is the result. I think it looks kinda neat despite me being straight up incompetent when it comes to photoshop.


Original screenshot:
https://i.imgur.com/R8TSS1G.jpg

At night version:
https://i.imgur.com/xbdhgnG.png


Pretty cool! Druid grove would be so atmospheric at night.

Originally Posted by Tuco
It's also funny as an excuse, because frankly even "doing it half assed" would still be leagues better than not doing it at all because "too difficult".


I think the excuse is multiplayer and wonky time flow when some characters are in real time and some in turn-based. But imo that's a shit excuse.

Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.


Yes. 100%. It just adds so much to so many aspects of a game.



I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)

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