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Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722112
29/10/20 07:51 PM
29/10/20 07:51 PM
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Quote
- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.

The second you bring 'feels like' into the equation it does infact not make it fac but an opiniont. People experiences things differently. And feelings just as opinions are very personal. People can agree or disagree with opinions but dont say that something is fact when it is not.

Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Emrikol] #722216
29/10/20 09:13 PM
29/10/20 09:13 PM
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Lindon Offline
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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.


I hope they undo a lot of their "homebrew" changes that ruin combat (bonus actions, surface effects, monster stats, cantrips, food healing, etc.) but that will mean redesigning every encounter in the game. If all they've created so far is Act 1, maybe that's doable. If they're working on Acts 2 and 3 already though, I suspect they won't put forth that effort and instead will try to tweak the balance and we'll be stuck with this stuff. Keep in mind that the guy in charge of combat apparently thinks BG1/2 combat was garbage and seems to have a huge hard-on for annoying surface effects, so I doubt we'll see anything major change unless he's fired.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Roarro] #722221
29/10/20 09:16 PM
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Lindon Offline
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Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?


The problem is that we have DOS fans and BG fans and they want different things. There's people that love surface effects and barrelmancy and don't mind that mobs are buffed to compensate. Then there's people that hate them and feel their gameplay experience is ruined by it. Larian's only going to be able to please one group.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Lindon] #722226
29/10/20 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lindon
Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?


The problem is that we have DOS fans and BG fans and they want different things. There's people that love surface effects and barrelmancy and don't mind that mobs are buffed to compensate. Then there's people that hate them and feel their gameplay experience is ruined by it. Larian's only going to be able to please one group.


Wouldn't it be more logical to pander towards the BG fans since this supposed to be a BG game?

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722228
29/10/20 09:24 PM
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Orbax Offline
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If you look at the sales of DOS2 v BG, not really :p Theyll get their fanbase and bait and switch the BG ones and win big!


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722238
29/10/20 09:32 PM
29/10/20 09:32 PM
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Warlord999 Offline
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Demoulius] #722249
29/10/20 09:51 PM
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Isaac Springsong Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Demoulius


*snip*

I assume that most of it are complaints because thats the nature that I have seen them be referenced in. If you mention a 4 man party 99 out of 100 times thats in reference that bg1 and 2 had 6 man parties and people want to complain about it. So yes, if I see that in a topic about why it feels to much like DOS compared to BG I will assume that its a complaint.

The same applied to most of the things where I assumed that it was a complaint. If it wasent one it wasent very clear because a more in depth description was missing.

Re your point about 29: I also offered that that it might be a balance issue. Infact I started with that point... I think its either a leftover code from DOS or done for balance. In 3.5 dnd pet classes were also considered to be OP so maybe the devs were aware of that and were trying to avoid it beeing an issue again?

Re 35. I disagree. Dont find it an issue at all.

Re46: when something is balanced for 3 to 5 players, the avarage of that is 4. So in that sense, yes. Dnd IS based around 4 players. Its simular in the sense that both bg3 and DOS have 4 man parties. Sure. But I find the vein popping rage induced rants that this game isent bg because it doesent have 6 man parties to be very facinating. Facinating and probably unhealthy if people are so invested in that party size....

Re58: people at the table generally catch on quikly what the AC needed to hit is. If a 13 misses but a 14 hits it doesent take a scientist to figure out what the AC is. Some DM's just tell the players what the AC is to improve the pace of combat. Point is 'the players wouldnt know either' can only go so far as an argument. As is it shows the player much needed information that they need to make informed decisions. At the table the dm might say 'you see a warrior brandished in shining plate armor accompanied by a tall grey haired wizard in robes. Alongside them stands a gnome in stylish studded leather armour' or something simular. It conveyes information that the players can take in to determine potential AC's (armour descriptions) where in bg3 you dont have that per se. I mean you see it rather then hear it and that doesent necessarily get the same information across. Specially if they have several skins for the same armour. The players needs to have some form of visual que imo to know which target is less armoured. I think Larian went withe just showing us the AC. What would you suggest how they could improve this?

Re 61: if you want I can cite you the rule and page in the rulebook that cites this. But im currently not at home so youd have to wait for that one.

Re:66. what about it is wrong? Also seeing them just before your guys would see them allows you a small window to respond what you just found. But it is 100% reliant on having line of sight to it.

Re 70: saying that the AI doesent focus your squishies in bg is so laughably false now im wondering if you played it... AI does and SHOULD focus your weaker teammates first.

Re 17: if thats your description of normal enemies its still false. Ive seen plenty use just normal attacks even if the number of consumables used in battle is to high.

Re 10: In BG2 you start as a prisoner by Irenicus, who frequently (mentally) tortured you, his stronghold is attacked by shadow thieves allowing you to escape. While his ship doesent sink because he dident hold us captive on one. After we escape our escape is also complicated by our half sister beeing captured alongside our captor by the cowled wizards. So ALOT more points in common then just 2. If he held us captive on a boat the comparison would probably be a 10/10 because all the things not on the list are tied to the location where he held us captive. And another thing... this kind of intro is a story telling trope. Its not a DOS thing per se...

Re53: Seriously whats with the insults? You literally had to go in multiplayer mode and assign all slots to yourself to make a party of 6 members. It was possible but wasent the traditional way to play it. Try launching a single player game and tell me how many characters you get to make.

Re 56: I dont need to click on your link mate. I played the damn games. Most of the things you found were a few paragraphs long, or a single page for notes/messages that you found. There were some longer reads but its not like every book you found was an actual book. Granted they had more text the the books in DOS or bg3, sure. But not by all that much. Nor would I categorize bg3 a DOS game because the lorebooks..... its just kind of a silly argument in my opinion.


#29 - It is neither balance intended nor a limitation of the engine (again, Glut Army). So it is a conscious choice.

#35 - You're doing it again. I did not say whether it was or was not an issue/bad thing, but it is a factor. DoS was well known for having been set in the British Isles and nowhere else. BG series had an abundance of different accents. BG 3 is also set in the British Isle it seems, so on the list it goes. Reusing the exact same voice for Malady (voice, not voice actress. By all means go look at how many Voice Actors the BG series used and who multiple actors provided extremely different voices)

#46 - Except then it would be listed as being balanced for 4 players. It is not. It is 3-5, or 4-5. And again, is DoS well known for having 4 person parties? Yes. Is BG well known for having 4 person parties? No. Is it discussed a lot? Literally one of the longest ongoing discussions, so yes. Ergo, it goes on the list as a DoS factor that contributes its part to the 'feeling' of DoS rather than BG. Stop confusing this thread as the place where people are discussing whether 4 person parties are good or bad, but rather whether that is a factor in why the game feels like BG or DoS.

#58 - Yup, they sure do. They find out that information organically, sometimes even by just looking at the miniature or the DM's description of the target. Which is exactly what happened in the BG series. It is not what happened in the DoS series. This is not the place to discuss improving it or not, but the fact is DoS is well known for the Examine mechanic, BG is not well known for that, and it is something that has been discussed here and on Discord (with growing occurrence). So on the list it goes.

#61 - No need, because I know the rules better than you think you do. PHB pg 191. Relevant text under the heading of "Moving Around Other Creatures" --- "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space."

You could not move through an ally at all in DoS, you could move through an allies space in BG. Ergo, on the list.

#66 You are wrong that you cannot see enemies on the map without Line of Sight. It does work like that occasionally, typically via walls and doors, but absolutely not when on the overworld map. But Fog of War references not being able to see anything, enemies, terrain, and the minimap included, until you have Line of Sight. Solasta is a great example of this, but so is the BG series. You do not get the map revealed until you actually go explore it.

#70 Laughably wrong, again. You didn't play the game, or you played a heavily modified version of the game. BG AI had a host of prioritizations, distance to target being one of them. Some enemies would run past your frontline to get to the squishies, generally only if it was appropriate for that enemy type. Go ahead, go test it out. Load up BG 2 and demonstrate that the AI consistently targets the creature with the lowest (highest) AC value. I know it won't, because I did.

Is DoS known for AI that has perfect knowledge and targets your 'lowest' armor stat character, regardless of distance to target or other factors. BG AI is not known for doing this (feel free to go ask the coders that dived into the AI coding for the EE). Ergo on the list. If you have any sort of proof that this is incorrect in either respect, happy to remove.

#17 - That is my description. I cannot think of a single fight in BG 3 where the enemies did not do at least one of the following: use consumables, use bombs/thrown attacks, magical spells, special abilities (ones not from their 5e states). It is entirely possible that I have missed that particular fight or did not remember one where none of the above happened. Same process for DoS. Is DoS well known for this? Is BG series known for this? On the list.

#10 - I gave this one quite a bit of thought, but ultimately decided to keep it included on the list for the amount of times it has been brought up in discussions. Ignoring the amount of other people that 'feel' the same on this factor cannot be ignored. I also disagree with your broader inclusion of the BG 2 start elements, in addition to the fact that you completely ignored how BG 1 intro had absolutely none of those elements. You did make me think how DoS 1 doesn't necessarily have 10/10 factors, but it still had enough (beach after ship wreck being the most obvious).

#53 - You are again seeing what you want to see (insults) rather than what was actually written. I genuinely did not know if you played the entirety of the BG 1 and BG 2 series, because it *is* well known for being able to form an entire 6 player character party. Is DoS well known for making you take NPCs as companions instead of player created characters? Yes. Is BG well known for that? No. Is it discussed frequently? Yes. On the list.

#56 - You openly admit you didn't review the evidence provided, so your response does not carry much value. I provided empirical evidence of the length of the in-game BG series lore books. I haven't been able to find a list of the BG 3 in-game lore books yet, but more than happy to review one if you can provide. At the moment, there is no question (in my own person opinion) about the difference in descriptive sizes. More than happy to change this one if provided contradictory evidence or sufficient confirmation that others disagree.

Please stop trying to say whether a factor is good or bad, you keep doing that.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Warlord999] #722251
29/10/20 09:52 PM
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Isaac Springsong Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Warlord999
*snip*

I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


Well shoot, never been this easy to realize someone doesn't actually read the provided information and is worthy of a block. Good luck out there mate.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722254
29/10/20 09:57 PM
29/10/20 09:57 PM
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Warlord999 Offline
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Warlord999
*snip*

I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


Well shoot, never been this easy to realize someone doesn't actually read the provided information and is worthy of a block. Good luck out there mate.


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Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Warlord999] #722256
29/10/20 09:59 PM
29/10/20 09:59 PM
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The Composer Offline

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Originally Posted by Warlord999


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


If you can't contribute constructively to a discussion, the best solution is to not contribute at all. Having different opinions than yourself is actually allowed, and even a good thing in the world. Without other thoughts, the world would stagnate pretty fast.

Since you keep fixating on being passive-aggressive towards other forum members and have some weird obsession with fedoras, I'll make sure to tip mine to you the next time someone reports your posts, as a ban will follow immediately after.

Consider how you convey yourself in the future so that won't happen. Hopefully this warning is clear enough.

Edit: Never mind. You already beat me to it.

Please bring your fedora with you on the way out.

Last edited by The Composer; 29/10/20 10:00 PM.
Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Demoulius] #722258
29/10/20 09:59 PM
29/10/20 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.

The second you bring 'feels like' into the equation it does infact not make it fac but an opiniont. People experiences things differently. And feelings just as opinions are very personal. People can agree or disagree with opinions but dont say that something is fact when it is not.


Ho gosh....
Sry for my poor english as non-native one.

I rephrase it more correctly for you to understand (even if I'm pretty sure you don't really want to understand a point of view which is different from yours...)

- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so BG3 is closer in his design to DOS.
that's a fact.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is not a FEELING, this is a... wait for it... FACT. So don't say something is not a fact when it is.

More, what you say about "feel" is irrelevant.
People can indeed think BG3 feels or doesn't feel like DOS2. But no one can say "4 man parties ? Its totally BG !". And this is why this point participate to explain why BG3 feels like DOS2.

Saying "nah, feeling is personnal" is just a... poor way to denied the influence of game design. If we follow your reasoning it's impossible to make a game who feels like another since "you know it's feelings...".
Absurd. It's like if you said "people find Grave of the fireflies sad but it's not because of the work of his creator, it's just a feeling coming from nowhere". It's absurd.
A feeling didn't just pop-up out of nowhere in the minds of the people.
A feeling is induced by the design, the work the creators put in their creation.

So, definitely putting "4 man parties" in BG3 participate to the feeling of DoS cause it's a clear indicator, a clear difference, undisputable.
Saying otherwise is hypocrisy.

So again, the "4 man-parties" is a difference which participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.


Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.


Who said that ? Who said "increasing the size to 6 will make it bg" ? Really, who ?
There is just a guy who listed all the difference who participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.
And you summarize his work by a "one difference won't make difference". Yeah obviously. This is why there is more than 50 differences.
It's like saying "one brush stroke wont make a flower". yeah, obivously... This is why painter put more than just "one brush stroke".

I really try to deal with your stubborness but...
Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with.

You're saying, the guys can't do a thing about.... their game design ?
Wow.
It's an amazing argument. Larian are lucky to have you to defend them. I mean you litteraly said the guys can't... design.
I accept defeat.

warlord999
it's just a list of the differences.
Why being so aggressive ? This is not even a complaint. This is just a list of difference.
It's pretty crazy to see how some people came to defend and fight where there is nothing to defend or fight.
A guy did a list. You get crazy.
Did he say "lock picking progress bar is a pain in the ass, they have to remove it, I complain and will complain forever!!!" no, he just states a difference.
So please, calm down.


Last edited by Zefhyr; 29/10/20 11:15 PM.
Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722313
29/10/20 11:07 PM
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sethmage Offline
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good list, saw few of my compl... er... factors smile

print it out and see next year if any changes were made

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Warlord999] #722326
29/10/20 11:20 PM
29/10/20 11:20 PM
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Minsc1122 Offline
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Originally Posted by Warlord999
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the....
1. Choice of color palette
......
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


To me BG3 feels like an outdated game, it has annoying party movement, additional breaks/clicks/pauses where they should just let the game flow and the battles are boring.

Yes even BG2 is more modern in many aspect than this, but it was made 20 years ago.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722370
30/10/20 12:45 AM
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Zefhyr Offline
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Maybe I'm wrong but as I see it, it's...

The developers who did BG1 and 2 just think about developing a good game, fun, based on D&D but with all the advantages a video game could brought.

It looks like the developers who are doing BG3 are focus on creating a game which will be a D&D game and a DoS style game, forgetting the advantages a video game can brought.

I know my english is terrible (more it's very late here) but I hope you will get my point.

When looking for developping an amazing game thx to the knowledge of D&D seems like a good idea.
Overthinking and trying to give life to a pure copy/past of pen and paper D&D in a video game may be a bad idea.

One exemple (a good one, cause a major disagreement) :
The original devs may have think "hey guys ! Imagine, we are going to do a game with real fights ! It's gonna be soooo cool ! Finally we are going to be able to experience fights in reality time !"
The actual devs may be thinking "hey guys. We have to re-do it as a pen and paper game. So, forget about real time. we must do it turn-based cause this is how it is and who give a fuck if a computer is able to give life to some freaking amazing big real time battles ?"
Of course, it's just my opinion.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Abits] #722390
30/10/20 01:24 AM
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Vaell Offline
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Originally Posted by Abits
Most of this list is kinda useless. some of these things are not bad to have, some are genuine problems, and some are somewhere in between. but without any context, I'm not sure what you expect Larian to do with it.

Make each one more faithful to the source material and Baldur's Gate? That is the context. A great many of them contradict the details of Baldur's Gate and give the game this really strange off feeling that makes its really uncomfortable and almost disturbing to play.


Rogue or wizard? Why not both! Rogue/wizard/shadowdancer.
Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Sludge Khalid] #722394
30/10/20 01:36 AM
30/10/20 01:36 AM
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fallenj Offline
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So you want a echo chamber instead of a conversation?
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view


You do realize bg3 is in EARLY ACCES right?

Honestly I just see a list of complaints vs an informative or insightfull post that can help them.


Hi Demolius,

Do you realize that feedback is “expected” for early access right?

In customer experience you don’t tell a car company how to make the seats. They’re the owner of technology. They are the ones who should find the best solution. It’s the customers role to tell them what feels bad “oh, this seat is not comfortable at all”.

Let’s be professional handling with bad reviews. It happens in the market more than you can imagine smile I’d like to think that Larian is mature and they can handle it. They do not need defenders.

Wish you all the best my fellow comrade


So you want a echo chamber? You are right and no one should question you...ROFL

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722400
30/10/20 01:43 AM
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Vaell Offline
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Originally Posted by fallenj

So you want a echo chamber? You are right and no one should question you...ROFL

Not much really needs to be said. All larian has to do is go down the list and for each item imagine it in the older games. Is it a ludicrous addition? Remove it. Is it a gray area? Tweak and test it.It really isn't rocket science. They are people and have brains. Surely they can brainstorm ideas for improving each problem. I could hijack this thread with a gigantic post of my ideas for each one...but then people would just yell early access at me.


Rogue or wizard? Why not both! Rogue/wizard/shadowdancer.
Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722406
30/10/20 02:08 AM
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D
Demoulius Offline
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

#29 - It is neither balance intended nor a limitation of the engine (again, Glut Army). So it is a conscious choice.

#35 - You're doing it again. I did not say whether it was or was not an issue/bad thing, but it is a factor. DoS was well known for having been set in the British Isles and nowhere else. BG series had an abundance of different accents. BG 3 is also set in the British Isle it seems, so on the list it goes. Reusing the exact same voice for Malady (voice, not voice actress. By all means go look at how many Voice Actors the BG series used and who multiple actors provided extremely different voices)

#46 - Except then it would be listed as being balanced for 4 players. It is not. It is 3-5, or 4-5. And again, is DoS well known for having 4 person parties? Yes. Is BG well known for having 4 person parties? No. Is it discussed a lot? Literally one of the longest ongoing discussions, so yes. Ergo, it goes on the list as a DoS factor that contributes its part to the 'feeling' of DoS rather than BG. Stop confusing this thread as the place where people are discussing whether 4 person parties are good or bad, but rather whether that is a factor in why the game feels like BG or DoS.

#58 - Yup, they sure do. They find out that information organically, sometimes even by just looking at the miniature or the DM's description of the target. Which is exactly what happened in the BG series. It is not what happened in the DoS series. This is not the place to discuss improving it or not, but the fact is DoS is well known for the Examine mechanic, BG is not well known for that, and it is something that has been discussed here and on Discord (with growing occurrence). So on the list it goes.

#61 - No need, because I know the rules better than you think you do. PHB pg 191. Relevant text under the heading of "Moving Around Other Creatures" --- "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space."

You could not move through an ally at all in DoS, you could move through an allies space in BG. Ergo, on the list.

#66 You are wrong that you cannot see enemies on the map without Line of Sight. It does work like that occasionally, typically via walls and doors, but absolutely not when on the overworld map. But Fog of War references not being able to see anything, enemies, terrain, and the minimap included, until you have Line of Sight. Solasta is a great example of this, but so is the BG series. You do not get the map revealed until you actually go explore it.

#70 Laughably wrong, again. You didn't play the game, or you played a heavily modified version of the game. BG AI had a host of prioritizations, distance to target being one of them. Some enemies would run past your frontline to get to the squishies, generally only if it was appropriate for that enemy type. Go ahead, go test it out. Load up BG 2 and demonstrate that the AI consistently targets the creature with the lowest (highest) AC value. I know it won't, because I did.

Is DoS known for AI that has perfect knowledge and targets your 'lowest' armor stat character, regardless of distance to target or other factors. BG AI is not known for doing this (feel free to go ask the coders that dived into the AI coding for the EE). Ergo on the list. If you have any sort of proof that this is incorrect in either respect, happy to remove.

#17 - That is my description. I cannot think of a single fight in BG 3 where the enemies did not do at least one of the following: use consumables, use bombs/thrown attacks, magical spells, special abilities (ones not from their 5e states). It is entirely possible that I have missed that particular fight or did not remember one where none of the above happened. Same process for DoS. Is DoS well known for this? Is BG series known for this? On the list.

#10 - I gave this one quite a bit of thought, but ultimately decided to keep it included on the list for the amount of times it has been brought up in discussions. Ignoring the amount of other people that 'feel' the same on this factor cannot be ignored. I also disagree with your broader inclusion of the BG 2 start elements, in addition to the fact that you completely ignored how BG 1 intro had absolutely none of those elements. You did make me think how DoS 1 doesn't necessarily have 10/10 factors, but it still had enough (beach after ship wreck being the most obvious).

#53 - You are again seeing what you want to see (insults) rather than what was actually written. I genuinely did not know if you played the entirety of the BG 1 and BG 2 series, because it *is* well known for being able to form an entire 6 player character party. Is DoS well known for making you take NPCs as companions instead of player created characters? Yes. Is BG well known for that? No. Is it discussed frequently? Yes. On the list.

#56 - You openly admit you didn't review the evidence provided, so your response does not carry much value. I provided empirical evidence of the length of the in-game BG series lore books. I haven't been able to find a list of the BG 3 in-game lore books yet, but more than happy to review one if you can provide. At the moment, there is no question (in my own person opinion) about the difference in descriptive sizes. More than happy to change this one if provided contradictory evidence or sufficient confirmation that others disagree.

Please stop trying to say whether a factor is good or bad, you keep doing that.

#29. Are you Larian? Do you KNOW why its like that in the game? No? Hen dont assume to know the reasons behind their actions. It beeing a leftover from their engine or a balance issue is the most likely anwser to me.

#35 im doing...what? Giving my opinion? Now im confused, why are you upset over that?

#46: Ah yes RPG games are WELL KNOWN for the parties size in the game.... (sarcasm incase anyone is wondering) also im not confusing this as a place for discussion (even if that IS the purpose for these entire forums....) but rather am chiming in. Its not an attack and people are allowed to have different opibions as well. Im saying why I dont see it as such and if you dont agree with me THATS FINE.

#58: you keep using the 'well known' line but ive never heard of a game beeing known for a mechanic to take a closer look at an enemies stats... It was an option, yes. But if you dont want to discuss what else they could do instead then you dont have to I suppose.

#61: Ah good, you found the proper page. Take a look further down the page however: where it blatantly states that you cant move through the hobgoblin in a doorway. Note it does not mention 'a hostile hobgoblin'. It allows you to do what the title says 'move around them'. It allows you to move through the tile they are standing in but only if you could realisticly move past them. You CANNOT move through teammates. Or anyone else who is friednly for that matter. Also if you were close enough to an enemy it would still trigger an attack of opportunity.

Also about moving through teammates in bg. False. You cannot move through teammates AT ALL. Say your mage and rogue are held with a hold person spell you cannot move a fighter past them to get to the enemies. They only move to the side sometimes when a friendly 'pushes' them sort of out of the way, but they need their own movement to do that. You could also do that with neutral NPC's incidentily. If anything though it was a bit of glitchy movement. Im not sure if it was an intended feature.

#86: Sounds more like a glitch to me then. Considering seeing through walls should obviously not be a thing if you need line of sight to see things. Considering we can see through hidden wallss as well currently I think its just safe to mention that the camera and line of sight are abit finicky and buggy atm.

#70: Im abit sick and tired of people saying I did not play the game honestly. Specially when the things that I have posted already blatantly disprove your insult. Ofcourse the AI wont go out of its way to close his ranged fighter to your melee fighter to get a shot at that distant mage. Its not retarded! If he moves into range though even after he has already engaged he might switch target priority however. Which proves my point. That said its a 20 year old game so the AI isent as advantced of that of BG3 but it was defenitly there. Found yourself in a bandit ambush as a random encounter for example where you are SURROUNDED by bandits with bows you will find your squishes targetted ALOT. Again proves my point. Might even target him even though a fighter in plate is closer. Inmagine that! AI in such an old game!

And again the 'the game is very known for' line. Do you get royalties every time you say it? ;P Yeah the AI in DOS is obsessed with dogpiling the most poorly armoured fighters, but thats not the only thing it does and it defenitly isent the thing the game is 'known for'

#17. If you use that description then yes, there are no normal enemies. Enemies also used consumables in BG1 and 2 though. Althoug the only consumables that they used were really potions or special arrows if memory serves me well but by gods they used them.

#10. I did not broaden the terms for the BG2 comparison. If you dont believe me, play the early game again until you escape from Irenicus' dungeon. The opening scene has you in a cage, beeing tortured by Irenicus. Thats already 2 points. Things go south really quikly as Irenicus has to depart because his complex is beeing attacked allowing you to escape. You make your way through the exit of the dungeon and an explosion basicly rips a hole in the trade district. Irenicus then fights the cowled wizard but 'surrenders' if they also take Imoen kidnapping your half sister. Thats 5 points at least. You dont wake up on a beach and the prison wasent a ship. It doesent sink and you dont wake up on a beach. If you include the explosion not blowing up the PC thats 6 points as divine intervention but that might be taking the piss about laugh

And again, the whole 'you start captured and then escape' is a widely used trope to start a story. But I can see how people might draw compariisons to DOS.

#53: If people question whatever im beeing truthfull about what im saying while the points that im making about the game make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that I did then yes, I am bloody offended by that; because it feels very disenguine.

Playing Multiplayer and making a full PC team was a method to play, yes. Not everyone liked it though because you missed all inter party interaction the game had to offer and it defenitly wasent the default way to play the game. I would LOVE it if Larian included it at some point but im neither expecting nor want it to be for my 1st playthrough. It allowed for better (read: stronger) parties but you missed so much roleplaying it was genuinely a shame. I only did it after completing the game honestly but it was an interesting way to play the game defenitly.

#56: I said that bg did have longer books? Just not that I felt it warranted it to be a difference to mention why it makes you think of DOS. I dont see play a rpg and see books with short text and go 'ah yes. Short lore books. This reminds me of DOS'

I really dont get what you are getting at honestly. You compiled a lists of complaints (and yes, most of them are complaints) why people think the game is DOS3 rather then BG3 and then get mad when people point out this fact. If you dont want to offer Larian feedback what they can do to combat it im not sure what the purpose of the list is honestly?

Quote
Ho gosh....
Sry for my poor english as non-native one.

I rephrase it more correctly for you to understand (even if I'm pretty sure you don't really want to understand a point of view which is different from yours...)

- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so BG3 is closer in his design to DOS.
that's a fact.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is not a FEELING, this is a... wait for it... FACT. So don't say something is not a fact when it is.

More, what you say about "feel" is irrelevant.
People can indeed think BG3 feels or doesn't feel like DOS2. But no one can say "4 man parties ? Its totally BG !". And this is why this point participate to explain why BG3 feels like DOS2.

Il try to take into consideration that you arent a native speaker. Im not myself but speak it plainly enough that its not really an issue for me.

And no, sorry its still an opinion and still not a fact. There goes ALOT more into game design then just party size. Just sharing a party size with a different game is not enough to make a game closer in design then another. Its a simularity that they have an not much beyond that. If you said 'both DOS and BG3 currenlty have 4 man parties' then sure. Thats a fact. Hold up il bring up the defenitions of the 2 so we are on the same page:

Opinion: a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Il try to explain it with a example. I saw a movie a while back that I found HILARIOUS! So I pushed a buddy to go see it. And his opinion was a 'meh' at best. People have different opinions and while we watched the same movie he just dident find it all that great. He couldnt really pinpoint what it was, just that he dident like it.

Thats the same vibe that im getting from everyone who says its 'DOS 3'. I mean we all get that its done by the same company in the same engine that made DOS. But this fact aside people are just screaming 'this isent bg' and have no concise point that makes it such.

Quote
Saying "nah, feeling is personnal" is just a... poor way to denied the influence of game design. If we follow your reasoning it's impossible to make a game who feels like another since "you know it's feelings...".
Absurd. It's like if you said "people find Grave of the fireflies sad but it's not because of the work of his creator, it's just a feeling coming from nowhere". It's absurd.
A feeling didn't just pop-up out of nowhere in the minds of the people.
A feeling is induced by the design, the work the creators put in their creation.

So, definitely putting "4 man parties" in BG3 participate to the feeling of DoS cause it's a clear indicator, a clear difference, undisputable.
Saying otherwise is hypocrisy.

So again, the "4 man-parties" is a difference which participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.


Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.


Who said that ? Who said "increasing the size to 6 will make it bg" ? Really, who ?
There is just a guy who listed all the difference who participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.
And you summarize his work by a "one difference won't make difference". Yeah obviously. This is why there is more than 50 differences.
It's like saying "one brush stroke wont make a flower". yeah, obivously... This is why painter put more than just "one brush stroke".

Except that 'feeling is personel' is very true and like I said above in an example makes it that people dont perceive things in the same way. Its not a point to do or not do something its just that developers need something more tangible to work with if you want it to feel less like the thing that it feels like. Some of the poitns were 'actionbar' and im wondering if that isent satire honestly. Every RPG has a taskbar? How does the taskbar make you think about DOS when you see it in BG3? (to name just 1 example)

Im not sure what you mean when I say 'one difference wont make difference'? I never said that? And yes you had a big list of differences.... I can also make a big list if I have mulitples that are basicly the same thing but just worded differently.

And who are saying that 6 man parties would make it bg? Aside from the people who are LITERALY pushing for Larian to do that..... What is the entire point of mentioning the party size if you dont want to see it changed? There wouldnt be a point behind it. So im assuming that people who mention it dont like 4 man parties and want to see it changed to 6 man parties. Not a big assumption to make if you ask me. If you are now going to go out and say that it isent something that you want to see changed then you are beeing incredibly disengenous.

Quote
I really try to deal with your stubborness but...
Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with.

You're saying, the guys can't do a thing about.... their game design ?
Wow.
It's an amazing argument. Larian are lucky to have you to defend them. I mean you litteraly said the guys can't... design.
I accept defeat.

Well nice thing about that, you dont have to. I personally dont think I am the stubborn one here but if you dont want to deal with me....you dont have to.

Im not saying that at all! Im saying that a developer needs clear feedback if you want them to change something. Just saying 'taskbar' (to stay with that example) doesent tell them ANYTHING. What about it? Is it the shape? is it to small? Is it to big? Is it the colours? Is it the location on the screen? Would you rather have round actions rather then square ones?

And before you say But were just making a list here!' yeah well these forums are the feedback and suggestions forums. Pardon me if I take the subjects in this place as such and not just some random list made for shits and giggles. We got off topic forums for that. And if you are offering them feedback, dont act suprised when other people chime in as well.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Vaell] #722413
30/10/20 02:19 AM
30/10/20 02:19 AM
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fallenj Offline
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Your right, conversations on forums are pointless and the op plus whoever agrees need only to be heard. Not like we are on a forum or anything. Maybe send a email or go to the post office and send the list.

Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 [Re: Isaac Springsong] #722683
30/10/20 09:41 AM
30/10/20 09:41 AM
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Zefhyr Offline
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Yeah, yeah demoulius you're completely right. Not stubborn at all.
Creators have no influence on their creation and developpers can't design.
You're the smart ass here and indeed I wont deal with you anymore after this last comment.

A guy did a list of difference so another could take this list and do exactly as Vaell said.
Sadly there are guys like you going crazy and trying to transform fact in feelings.
- a man is black
- a man is white
- a child is black
it's a fact the skin color of the child makes him looks like the first man. It's a thing that's"proved to be true". It's a fact, thank you for the definition.

So the child feels more like the black man childs. It's not a feeling coming out of nowhere, it's a feeling coming from a detail.

As you said, your friend didn't enjoy the movie as much as you because "he couldnt really pinpoint what it was".
The fact that he couldn't do it didn't mean there is no reason. On the contrary ! He feels there was reasons. Maybe it would have helped him if somebody did something like.... I don't know.... a list.
there is not such a thing as coincidence in life. Everything, every thougths, every choices we make, every feelings we have, are the results of an infinity of parameters.
We used the words "coincidence" or "luck" when we can't get them.


But you're right, I'm wrong.

Developpers have no brain, no analysis capacity to used a list of differences and more they have absolutely no control on the feelings we get from the game the are doing.
The horror movies are horror movies by pure luck, the star wars movies feel like star wars movies by pure luck, and BG3 will may be feel like BG or DOS or CoD or Minecraft or Sims just by pure coincidence cause... you know... "it's feelings and it's something the devs can't do anything with".


BTW, thx to you I realize I missjudged a miscellaneous minor items recently...
Some guys in my town tag a cross consisting of 4 gamma on some jewish graves.
I felt like it was an antisemitic act but... as you know... it's just a feeling and, as you say, the author of the tag can't do anything with...
So I must have been wrong and I realized it thx to you ! Thx you so much. For so long I thougth people had a responsibility concerning their actions. But now I realized they didn't have any at all.
It's just my feelings and, as you learn to me, they can't do anything with it.


You are so damn right.

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