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I initially didn't want to write about the turned-based system since it was an assumed decision.
I tried it, must admin that going through traps is really useful in turned-based mode.
Some on-the-edge battles are really efficient in turned-based, so I wouldn't through it away now.
But when you're fighting ten mephits it becomes absurd!

- Every creature has its right to its turn, that's fair, but I don't need to watch them thinking and "roaring" and spending their turn in 10 seconds, at least not 10 times until the full turn ends!

- Every turn, I can try to hit a mephit with a sword or use a spell, does it feel realistic? Let me reiterate: a swing of a sword equals the time of saying a spell phrase. What in the 9th ...?? You will tell me that's dnd rules, but what do we really want? A picturization of a dice on a computer or a good videogame?

- I wait for my turn, I build my strategy, I aim, I release, and miss; and then I watch 4 more mephits before I charge a level 1 spell; these battles take forever

- And finally I watch 10 characters standing and breathing while one of them moves two meters, charges and... misses; my wife says I'd better play chess than waste an i7 on this

- "We say" (or agreed, since Larian says it) that turn-based is an "evolution" of the real-time with pause system. So let's reiterate. Decades ago some dudes wanted to play a game with the logic of damage/health/etc. so they used math, but they needed a mechanic of chance to remove predestination so they used dices and there you have it: dnd tabletop game with turn-based system, brilliant! Then we started to use computers, so the logical way was to implement whatever system there was physically into virtual, so there goes the turn-based system on computer games (Heroes & co). Meanwhile there are so many games out there working real time, why? because the computer CAN do all the calculations behind a turn in the backend and the user can benefit a real experience. Then we realize that the environment moves too fast for the user who wants to control everything and we need something to slow-down the action. And decades later, we "evolve" to the turn-based system. Let's speak up plain: this is going back to the origin because some old beards want to remember their good days when they played tabletop. We were supposed to play better than real-time with pause now, what system? I don't know, you're the experts, but definitely this is an involution.

Okay, let's look at the bigger picture:
- the game allows nice interactions with many objects (I can through a can or I can fall from a spider web), nice
- but the rest of the physics are at most mediocre for a game in 2020, it's a 2D game with 3D characters and few extra vectors
- it was discussed so much about variety and multiple options, but the dialogue and plot options don't get even close to the old BG2 complexity
- the story is ... there... an intrigue worth investigating, a "little" crossed the line: you're level 1 in a mindflayer spacecraft attacked by dragons which lands in hell. Okay, I didn't finish the game and I'm still waiting for that Baldur's Gate spark to hit me, but so far my expectations are low.
- music is not bad, very bad, main title welcomes you with some yells (from hell, probably)
- we know it's an alfa/beta/something, and we paid for it so you can work more on the real thing, but let's face it: the pressure was huge to redo a 20-year old best seller and with this it just gets bigger and bigger
- we will pay your full-game, too, we have no choice because we love Baldur's Gate and we hope, but do you want just money and be remembered as the one who tried?

I want to help you and help me buy a satisfactory game:
First, keep the turn-based thing, but give me an option to skip stupid useless turns; give me control, let me turn the turns off! Don't worry, I'll turn them on from time to time.
Second, in BG and BG2, the biggest reward and credibility for the player was that you started as no one, lost in a mass of people who do their daily job and later you grew into infinite! You need to consider this seriously, in your game you're already a recognized fighter and people are sparse, all already watching you; that's not Baldur's Gate.
Last and not least, get a better music! not a little better, much better! BG2 is a masterpiece in that sense, you must do something here.

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Originally Posted by MDY
First, keep the turn-based thing, but give me an option to skip stupid useless turns; give me control, let me turn the turns off! Don't worry, I'll turn them on from time to time.

I won't comment on any of TB stuff because there an existing thread for it. Do us all a favor and keep it there.

Originally Posted by MDY
Second, in BG and BG2, the biggest reward and credibility for the player was that you started as no one, lost in a mass of people who do their daily job and later you grew into infinite! You need to consider this seriously, in your game you're already a recognized fighter and people are sparse, all already watching you; that's not Baldur's Gate.

As for starting as no one and growing into great power, it's a tired and old idea that needs to put into retirement (which isn't to say this isn't how the story will play out in BG3)

Originally Posted by MDY
Last and not least, get a better music! not a little better, much better! BG2 is a masterpiece in that sense, you must do something here.

I like the music so far. Borislav Slavov did a masterful job with DOS2 and deserves time to let his new material settle in. There are more tracks to come, I'm sure. I don't recall BG2's soundtrack, but like most rpgs for the past 35 years, I'm sure it's second rate to the true masterpiece they we're inspired by: Basil Poledouris' soundtrack to Conan the Barbarian.

Last edited by Emrikol; 23/10/20 09:29 PM.
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I don't have neither time nor patience to browse through a full forum for a single topic. This folder was for feedback, so I gave feedback. Anyway I will search for that thread you mention, because this turned based is a decisive feature.

Regarding the tired and old idea, that is the real world: you are one out of billions and you are neither the worst neither the best at something, and you can't move mountains, at least not at the start. So however you want to call it old and tired, this idea is credible and realistic and gives you real feel of evolution.

Regarding music, I don't know about what barbarian comic books you refer to, but I refer to the soundtrack of the game from which this game inherits its title, or tries to. More than that, if you search the internet, you will see that BG2 soundtrack is actively listened and sampled and covered on a variety of instruments and styles on youtube and spotify (I don't know other channels because I don't use). So yes, BG2 soundtrack is a masterpiece. Moreover, the BG3 menu music is visibly inspired from the BG2 SoA menu song, in the sense that it start with a loud musical phrase and then decides on a slower pace theme.

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Ah another thread about turn based vs real time with pause. Ehat a novelty. Havent seen them in a day or two.

I think Larian said somewhere that dnd is turn based and bg3 would be to. So dont think real time is planned as of this time.

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Sorry, man, I found 200 threads with "turned based" and no particular standing out. So I write here.
I mostly address my post to the developers and sorry if I seem aggressive, but in my language there's a saying: you resemble wind, you collect storm.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say to throw the turned based system completely to the garbage, because you need it in very hard battles. When I played BG2 Black Pits at bhaal's legacy difficulty mode I was "emulating" turned based in most battles by pressing space. But you can't just play turned based forever, it's completely boring and stupid.

Some arguments, when you should admit that turned based is awful and should be removed:
- if you play a fighter you want to hack and slash, not to watch mages reading their scrolls or goblins "planning" their next move
- if you play against an easy party you want to skip some of their useless moves, especially when they "think" and wander without point
- if you play against a very big party, you don't want to spend 70% of the time watching of others' moves
- if you simply don't want to watch your enemy doing moves, you don't care
- if you simply don't want to play chess with D&D rules and want to play a video game

Turn based is NOT an evolution, at least not FULL turn based.
My opinion is that choosing this mode is purely a business decision (you already had the engine for this) and now trying to sell it as an "evolution". Ok, don't admit it, but listen.
As for the players who embrace it, they either don't care, they either didn't see something better, they either are D&D game maniacs who should play with cards and chips (sorry but really).
Yes, in BG2 if you pressed the button at the right time, you could have lost an action for a turn, so I understand the frustration for a control-freak d&d player, but playing a 2020 videogame as "chess" is definitely not the solution; I can go play chess if I really want that, which is a great game btw, but not this.

The turned based system is the logical evolution to or from a tabletop game, but NOT from or to a video game.
The logical evolution through automation and player feel is: dice and turns (board game) > full turn based > real-time with pause and glitches (BG1-2) > ???

If you WANT an evolution, then EVOLVE it!

Some ideas:
1. make it so that you can choose to skip watching enemy moves; just add a button/command that I can switch on and off when I want to watch enemies by turn, else when I end my party's turn, just let enemies fly around and attack or take punches, then go back to turned based and leave me think for my party
2. make it so that you can choose to skip everyone's moves (enemy and party) and make it real-time, in the middle of the battle; i.e. start turn based, gain advantage, then when the battle looks safe, hit the button and let the slashing begin
3. you may want a more "orchestrated" battle, then allow possibility to configure more turns in advance, for each character (use ability 1, use spell 2, attack, etc.), then hit the button and unleash "orchestrated slashing", then after X turns go back to turn-based mode or allow planning the next turns
4. you want more "chess" control? then display somehow (in a foldable window) all turn and D&D information, including order of characters in turns, skills you selected for each in the next X turns, possibility to change them, rotate them, etc.
5. you want even more "chess" control during real-time battles? then add an analogic clock somewhere and show how the time flows for a turn and based on that decide if the player's click was considered or not as an action during that turn (to cope for the glitches in BG1-2)
6. add all of the above in a stepped scrollbar between full turn-based control and real-time feel, so that you can swap during the game and during battles depending on difficulty and mood

I didn't play "divinity whatever" or other recent games based on d&d, but I played rts, fps, mmorpgs and real-time is needed as part of the action! I never played Heroes because of the stupid ancient turn- based and now I buy BG3 with turn-based? Do you think that BG1-2 would still be a great game if it was fully turned-based? For sure it would have been easier to code it as turned-based, but it wasn't. So if you want to stick to your turn-based system, then fine, but please remove the title BG3, make it Baldur's Gate adventures of the mindflayers or something, because as this is today, it's an involution to the gaming community.

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I won't really comment that much about RTWP/TB because I did it A LOT before the EA's realease. As Emrikol said, there is a thread about that and I can assure you it's useless to talk or dream about it.

That said you're totally right. Combats are slow and often boring.
There a several reasons.

- EA... The AI looks a little bit slow to choose what it's going to do.
- Larian's hombrew rules. They did strange choices and completely change the abilities of creatures. I.E according to D&D many spells/attack should OS weak creatures... But they don't. Combats are unbalanced, but also slower than they should be.
- They add many creatures is some encounter, which is VERY COOL according to me, but it didn't match their choices. More creatures + more HP often means slower combats.
- They stick to 4 characters as in their older games. 4 characters mean less damage par turn for your party. That means you'll probably never be able to kill more than 1 or sometimes 2 creatures in 1 turn.
- Everything is designed to be "challenging", and it shouldn't be. As you said... In the beginning the game should assume you're weak. Goblins should also be weak, gnolls should be weak... We shouldn't ONLY meet "artificially OP creatures" / group (archers with fire, goblin spellcaster,...) Just give us easy fresh meat, that's also something that gives the feeling we are powerfull (even at low level).

These are probably not the only reasons why combats often feel so slow, sometimes boring and/or not enough "chaotic" but I agree with you. Actually the journey is not fully satisfying and combats looks like a parenthesis.

I suggest you help us finding real ways to improve the game because it looks more like a "hot opinion" rather than a real thought on the subject.

About music they are not that epic to me (especially the main menu theme that really looks like a viking music and combat theme), but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/10/20 08:05 PM.
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Actually, BG1 used an engine originally intended for RTS so turn based would more than likely have been harder to do at that time.

Why try to bring chess into your arguments? It's a D&D video game and D&D is turn based. It's not like playing chess, it's like playing D&D. BG1/2 had a realtime adaptation of D&D rules, BG3 sticks to turn based. There is no requirement for a sequel to play the same way as the previous titles. I understand RTwP is a unique style of gameplay and fans of that would probably want more, but I'm tired of these demands to rename the game because you aren't getting quite the game you wanted.

Speeding up combat by allowing AI to act simultanously where applicable and adding a fast forward button could make turn based a lot faster, I could see it getting close to a realtime feel if done well. However, full on RTwP would probably not work well with the current design philosophy where combat is highly tactical and turns are generally very meaningful. If they implemented RTwP mode, it would not play that well. If they adjusted the design to fit better into RTwP, turn based combat would not be as good anymore.

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I don't expect to change the game into a real-time with pause, but I do hope they will really "evolve" the turn-based system into something fun.

Although I do agree (as I said before) that turn-based is useful for hard battles where full control is required, I feel there is no fun in many other cases, turn-based being an overkill control feature for a videogame. So for this reason I think it could be really "evolved" into something more flexible.

Now I understand turn-based is the basis for d&d x edition or whatever and I understand the people who designed this game are d&d passionates, however some of us (me included) want a good videogame, as close as possible (good i mean) to the previous BG. I personally don't care of d&d and I don't care what set of rules will govern the math behind the game and I am sure any set of rules can be good. I personally like the d&d math with dices and turns, but I think a good videogame cannot possibly follow exactly the design rules of a board game; they are different things and cannot be based on the same basis. Yes, I am sure you can inherit things and adapt them and make a good videogame and this is what I'm trying to point out: that the designers should focus more on adapting instead of simply "copying religiously" the d&d rules.

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OP. you will find the rtwp discussion in "Baldurs Gate 3 - Megathreads and guides. It's a subforum by itself created by one of the mods as the threads about the same topic started to drown out everything else.

Sadly I don't know how to link in these forums yet.

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Here you go, OP:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=652913&gonew=1#UNREAD
That's where this post belongs.

Unless, that is, you just really needed a post dedicated to yourself where people were more likely to respond to you specifically instead of your ideas getting lost in a thread full of hundreds of parroted comments.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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His comments won't get lost there. That thread is still highly active.

Originally Posted by MDY
Regarding music, I don't know about what barbarian comic books you refer to

If you're a fan of fantasy fiction, I am surprised you don't know about the movie (not a comic book). Do yourself a favor and check it out (especially for the music). The original 1982 movie, not the recent Jason Momoa one.

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Now I understand turn-based is the basis for d&d x edition or whatever and I understand the people who designed this game are d&d passionates, however some of us (me included) want a good videogame

OP is outright saying that a turn based video game cant be good lmao.

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Thanks for that link. No, I didn't just need my personal thread. Like I said before, I found 200 threads with "turned based" and I don't like digging into forums. Anyhow, I'll follow that one from now.


Originally Posted by Emrikol
If you're a fan of fantasy fiction, I am surprised you don't know about the movie (not a comic book). Do yourself a favor and check it out (especially for the music). The original 1982 movie, not the recent Jason Momoa one.

I'm not a fan of fantasy fiction, I just like a few games, among which BG2, and music in general. It happens that BG2 has a great soundtrack and for me it matters, and I would have expected the same from this one.

Originally Posted by Demoulius
OP is outright saying that a turn based video game cant be good lmao.

That's taken out of context. But you can lyao how much you want. Truth is I can't see a good video game with purely turn-based system, sorry.

Originally Posted by denhonator
Why try to bring chess into your arguments? It's a D&D video game and D&D is turn based. It's not like playing chess, it's like playing D&D.

Then we have different opinions. I don't particularly like D&D tabletop game, but if I would play that, I would play that. If I play a videogame I play a videogame. I don't think that if you like coffee and bananas then you would like the mix too. Chess is a 100% controlled game and I think a video game shouldn't or at least shouldn't be fully controlled all the time. In real life you never control 100% the world around you, so I don't expect that in a video.

Summing up on this post:
- I like BG2 for three main reasons: story, battles (with many spells) and music
- BG3 so far proved none: story yet to prove anything, battles are not good (explained above, way too long and too much control than necessary) and music is mediocre

For these reasons, currently I don't plan to buy the BG3 full game, paying a full price for a draft was more than enough. The biggest problem is that I didn't finish it yet and I already got bored repeatedly. The only reason I will finish it is because I still consider myself a fan of BG.

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I totally agrre with the OP.

Larian fail big with their "more strategic" TB. They should have be more humble and think twice before thinking, speaking and developing their gameplay.

I never feel as satisfied as when I get my refund for this EA (first time I did it, thx you GoG).

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It is D&D...

Baldur's gate even the older one were based on dice rolls with the difference that you never had persuasion insight and various check this game has.
Actually i feel great about the EA of course far from perfect with the implementation with the rules but actually feels way more based on D&D as a whole experience than the old baldur's gate.
I mean you can praise the old combat how you want. But in the end after you learned the spell skull trap all it took is spawn it and you can take down a dragon with no effort at all.
Bg1 e 2 were extremely easy to chesse and hijack in mechanics.
They were also a product of theyr time. I had in bg3 challenging encounters that made me think. And this only gameplay speaking.
Quests are Dynamic with different outcomes. Something that was barely present in the old bgs. Music is actually pretty good.
If you dislike DIce mechanics and checks why you play a D&D to start with? Play a the witcher.



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OP: Thanks for taking the time to give your feedback. Unfortunately, the only area we agree on is waiting on the AI. Larian needs to speed this up.

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Like i said.. Is far from perfect. Is still early access i do believe if Larian expand the ruleset to follow more D&D implement things like covering mechanics, advantages, disadvantages,talents probably most of the fight will speed up a lot.The game currently are just the bare bones of the rules many things are still missing but is getting there. My only problem at the moment is that Larian should on my opinion tone down the surfaces. And also apply more basic rules that are missing.


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