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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
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I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)

So... you are NOT against time limits, only stringent ones.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)

So... you are NOT against time limits, only stringent ones.


Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.

I don't see why decently implemented time limits should "prevent exploring".
They are supped to limit how much time you have to achieve specific goals, not how much time you can spend into the game in general.
It should be even less of an issue when matching a deadline gives you an extra reward, as in the Kingmaker example I mentioned, rather than punish you.

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I like the way it's done in Witcher 3 - if you arrive in a settlement at night, people will be asleep and you'll have to meditate as well, if you want to talk to the blacksmith. While that may seem inconvenient at times, it also makes the world feel so much more alive along with dynamic weather.

If you compare the worlds of DAI and Witcher 3 - which one feels more organic to you? And as we know there are some among us who would argue that Witcher is not even an RPG, I for one think it's environment is one of the best examples of how an RPG world should feel like.

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Originally Posted by Azarielle
I like the way it's done in Witcher 3 - if you arrive in a settlement at night, people will be asleep and you'll have to meditate as well, if you want to talk to the blacksmith. While that may seem inconvenient at times, it also makes the world feel so much more alive along with dynamic weather.

If you compare the worlds of DAI and Witcher 3 - which one feels more organic to you? And as we know there are some among us who would argue that Witcher is not even an RPG, I for one think it's environment is one of the best examples of how an RPG world should feel like.

Yeah, scheduling tied to the night/day cycle.
Ultima VII did this stuff in 1992 -and I'm not even sure it was the first- and since then it's a staple in most (good) RPGs.

But Larian people seems to be way more fond of their "frozen in time" design approach, despise the fact that a day/night cycle was already something that they promised (and then never delivered) at the time of the Original Sin 1 kickstarter.
Somehow they seem to think that the concept of passing time, having a dynamic world, etc. is not worth the work.

Which is bizarre, given how much time Swen VIncke spent in the past saying that Ultima VII was his role model of an ideal RPG and where he wanted to go given the budget.
Now they are doing an RPG with a budget that would put even some Bioware production to shame, but just removing more and more expected features as the time goes.

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Originally Posted by Corren
D&D is balanced largely around the question of resource management, namely day&night cycle.

When playing, this is handled by the DM along with the players through narration. But in a game like BG3, it becomes a little more difficult.

One issue I encountered while playing was the ever present feeling of cheating the game anytime I pressed the "rest" button. Because yes, resting in D&D is ALSO a resource to be managed.

And so, since I can rest anytime I want, reset my spells after every fight, engage every ambush with full hp with no cost whatsoever and succeed this way much more often... Well I feel like I deserve none of these successes.
"Well, then, just rest less often, you absolute inane QQ machine", you'll tell me (in more gentle words I hope). Your advice would be sane. But what do I gain by not resting? And what interval is the right one? Who decides? I have no DM to turn to, and the game gives me no obligation, no limitation, nothing to aim for. I just limped away from a fight against a horde of goblins, closed the makeshift door behind me and blew off the torches best I could. Now, surely, the goblins are looking inside every room to find me. But the magic button teleports me in a magical forest, where my magic campsite awaits, with weirdly uncomfortable-looking sleeping bags.
Right now, the campsite feels like it's nothing short of a level 6 "Druid Grove" spell or a level 7 "Mordenkainen Magnificent Mansion" spell. Only it's FAR better, as it's completely free and doesn't require casting time or anything.

Anyway, I'm belaboring the point. Bottom line is: it feels weird to not have days and nights. It causes me to second guess every single spellcast, leads me to feel like I don't deserve my successes and kinda breaks the spell&rest system a little bit. As it is, it's a poor way of managing resources.

I gain the sense of knowing that I'm playing the game the way I want. I was thinking that this was going to be focused on the lack of night for actual gameplay, instead of just another "but Long Resting is bad" thread. The immediate solution to the problem is to just not do it. It's what I do, and, in fact, I was afraid to do it initially, because time bomb in my head. Even after events play out, I refrain from doing it, not because I feel like it's exploitive or anything, but simply because that's my approach to a lot of optional things, if I don't feel like it's something I have to do, I don't do it. I carry lots of food too. Do I use it in combat? Nope. But I will use it after. Why? Because I can't see stopping in the middle of a fight to "make a sandwich". It's also why I don't change armor in combat, and why I don't loot during combat.

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I also dislike the way rest is implemented. And not just the timing. The camp is awful too. Where is this camp? I can teleport to it from the bottom of a dungeon, have a sleep, and then teleport right back to the same place I was standing. This really destroys the believability of the world for me. I also hate that the camp is the place I talk to my companions - why can't I talk to them on the road?

Maybe we could have restrictions on where we can rest? For example, can't rest if monsters are nearby, or if indoors, or in hostile locations (like the Goblin den). To compensate, let us have more short rests - like in the 5e rules where we get one short rest per hit dice.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard

I gain the sense of knowing that I'm playing the game the way I want. I was thinking that this was going to be focused on the lack of night for actual gameplay, instead of just another "but Long Resting is bad" thread. The immediate solution to the problem is to just not do it. It's what I do, and, in fact, I was afraid to do it initially, because time bomb in my head. Even after events play out, I refrain from doing it, not because I feel like it's exploitive or anything, but simply because that's my approach to a lot of optional things, if I don't feel like it's something I have to do, I don't do it. I carry lots of food too. Do I use it in combat? Nope. But I will use it after. Why? Because I can't see stopping in the middle of a fight to "make a sandwich". It's also why I don't change armor in combat, and why I don't loot during combat.



Even if your approach is the healthiest and ultimately that's what I did in my playthrough it's not an answer to everything. Long rest and day night cycle are connected.

Look at it this way:
If your spells have limited use per day, sleeping restores them and you can sleep endlessly then indeed why would you have the limited use of spells in the first place?

In PnP ( correct me if I'm wrong , i never played tabletop!) you have your GM to tell you " you woke up 1 hour ago, you used all your spells...that's your problem. You can't go to sleep again for now"). So you have all this resources management thing that come into play. You CAN'T use them all at once. That's what makes a balanced game.

In BG2 they had no idea how to balance it so they added a day night cycle and a meaningless sleep system that you could spam. They could remove the sleep system together with the spell limit per day. It served immersion and that's it. They forced the fatigue system + random encounters to make at least some kind of game mechanic around it. But effectively your mage was a spell gatling gun.

In BG3 Larian added an incentive for resting -> Talking to your team. That's why they don't have to worry about a day/night cycle also. It was the simplest and most logical solution. That's why your enemies are bullet sponges. To make sure you use those precious spells of yours and have a reason to sleep. Your characters will never feel the need to sleep, you won't get random attacks when going to sleep. Effectively they sacrificed immersion and interactions with your team outside of camp. And earned simplicity in return. They don't have to implement a day -night cycle.

Larian focuses on gameplay above all in an RPG, so that decision is not surprising.

We want a day/night cycle for immersion. But this requires a non-retarded in-game sleep system that has still to be invented for the past 20 years. If you achieve this in this thread I will send all of you a cookie. I have no fucking idea how to do it.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.

I don't see why decently implemented time limits should "prevent exploring".
They are supped to limit how much time you have to achieve specific goals, not how much time you can spend into the game in general.
It should be even less of an issue when matching a deadline gives you an extra reward, as in the Kingmaker example I mentioned, rather than punish you.


Hence why I said I can tolerate time limits if they're "reasonably implemented and don't turn[...]".

And that's the thing - specific goals. One mission with a reasonable time limit to have semblance of realism and nudge the player (two weeks to rescue Dynaheir). Main quest isn't really a "specific goal". Now perhaps I'm just imagining the bad way to do time limits, but if a game tells me "here, have this vast area full of quests and interesting areas to explore... btw, you have 7 days to finish Act I", that's not fun.

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Humm, something seems off here:

1) larian won't implement a day/night cycle because it's too complicated,

2) people don't want to reuse game mechanics from a 20 year old game, presumably because theyre outdated (too simple?)

3) BG 1/2 implemented a day/night cycle just fine, 20 years ago

which is it ?

for me (lets be clear, my opinion), the day/night cycle titally added to immersion, and for me, imersion is king. Playing a rogue, going on nighttime heists ? Streets more dangerous at night? Certain shopkeepers and fences only popping up at night ? Bring it on,!

While we're at it, if it's really just one eternal day, presumably my party are still alive, so I'll have them back, please smile

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I still stand by my opinion that day/night cycle is of paramount importance when it comes to immersion... having some dynamic weather system would be welcome as well.

Now here's a little story: on my first BG3 playthrough, I played a cleric, and I made it a point to rest only when necessary, like some of you pointed - the game is yapping about our imminent ceremorphosis, about wasting time and what not, so, including the tiefling party I rested 4 times, from the beginning aboard the nautiloid (you can't rest there obviously) up until the boat ride in the Underdark. On my 2nd playthrough, knowing that resting a lot doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, I rested a crapload, uncovered all these little cutscenes and dialogues with the party members I have not encountered before - because lo and behold - they are tied to long resting after certain in game events and quests completed, long resting a lot as well.

Do I need to explain any of you the ... and I hate using this word btw - the retardation of our current system? I am not asking for Fallout 1's solution either (anyone remember the 30/60 day limit to finish FO1? now that is panic attack inducing), just give us day/night cycle, tie certain events (Astarion + Lae talking about stars for example) to the night, rework the way the camp works too. Make it adjust to our environment - you wanna rest in a dungeon? Fine, change it's surroundings to that of an inside of a broken down castle or something, wanna rest in the Underdark? Fine, but make it extra dark and give us no sky. Make it so we could be ambushed while camping. The thing is - your current suggestions to disallow camp inside of dungeons and what not is not the greatest solution, since you can just port to a waypoint outside, rest and go back and backtrack, sure, it's annoying, but just as immersion breaking.

As of now, BG3 seems to take too much out of Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age pages, where depending of where you were, you were stuck in time, there was no day/night cycle in all 3 MEs and DAO, DA2 had different day/night versions of the same map that you could choose yourself, and I barely remember what DAI had, my brain is repressing the memories. wink Now let's talk about other D&D titles, which BG3 is supposed to have a lot in common with. BG1/2 - day/night, ambushes while resting, rudimentary weather (those random lightning strikes were hella annoying btw). IWD 1/2 - same as BG1/2. NWN - same, NWN2 - same + Mask of the Betrayer introduced this really cool resting mechanic - with the spirit eater curse slowly eating you up from the inside, that you had to choose your rests, otherwise - if you rested to much and the spirit eater's spirit hunger reached 0 = game over baby. I am pretty sure that the Temple of Elemental Evil also had day/night cycle, Planescape Torment, on the other hand, had none. But that could've been explained by the Nameless One being in hells, passage of time being ... different there. So, unless, our little trip to Avernus in BG3, fucked the fabric of space and time entirely, then Larian has no excuse as to why we have no day/night cycle. They could even make it like it was in NWN2 (base game) cosmetic only. It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.

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When you think about it, it's kinda embarrassing that Larian can't do day/night cycle and has no clue of how make resting feel contextually appropriate and relevant (while also limiting it to some extent) and yet Pathfinder Kingmaker nailed every single one of these aspects (including very amusing party banters during rest/camping!) with a budget that in comparison could be described as "Pennies and crumbles".

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Originally Posted by Nicottia
anyone remember the 30/60 day limit to finish FO1? now that is panic attack inducing


Yes, that's the reason I only have like 20 hours on Fallout... And my above comments on time limits were written with Fallout in mind. I fear MotB, it's on my list, but I don't think I'm going to like the time mechanics.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
BG3 seems to take too much out of Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age pages


This is what concerns me about BG3. It seems like D:OS/DA hybrid, not even D:OS/BG hybrid.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
I barely remember what DAI had, my brain is repressing the memories


Would you happen to be another victim of DA:I disappointment? wink

Originally Posted by Nicottia
It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.


NPC schedules (basic, day/night, it's no TES with NPC taking weekly trips) would be indeed amazing. The world would feel like less of a setpiece.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
When you think about it, it's kinda embarrassing that Larian can't do day/night cycle and has no clue of how make resting feel contextually appropriate and relevant (while also limiting it to some extent) and Pathfinder Kingmaker nailed every single one of these aspects (including very amusing party banters during rest/camping!) with a budget that in comparison could be described as "Pennies and crumbles".


Yes, exactly, I don't understand how Larian seems to be unable to do that, given their budget. Like how many copies of BG3 has Larian sold in a month now? I remember it was ~1milion not even a week in. Now couple of weeks further, I think they've definitely outsold DOS2, and BG3 is not even out yet.

Also, I've never played Pathfinder Kingmaker, it's been sitting on my wishlist on steam, been planning to get it one day on a sale or something, so far everyone seems to be praising that game and I have to admit, I'm hella curious myself.

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Yes, that's the reason I only have like 20 hours on Fallout... And my above comments on time limits were written with Fallout in mind. I fear MotB, it's on my list, but I don't think I'm going to like the time mechanics.


I will admit, I played FO1 couple of times, first time when I was like... 7yr old? I know, it's not a game for children and stuff, I'm surprised my mother even let me play it, after I questioned her about meaning of certain words I didn't understand (different words that basically meant 'prostitute', 'intercourse' etc.), any sane parent would be in panic, I remember she told me something along the lines of: 'at lest your vocabulary is expanding'. laugh

And speaking of MotB, don't be scared, if you keep the spirit eater fed (via consuming spirits, duh), nothing bad will happen, and there are plenty of spirits scattered around, what I used to do was, once I reached like 40% I ate a spirit, got 100% and then rested, which, if I remember correctly, would put you at 90 or 80%, so it's pretty easy to manage. There was only one area that I can think of that was a bit troublesome, cause there was nothing for the spirit eater to consume, but aside from that, it's very easy and manageable. Don't worry and I really recommend that game! Also, that example of game over was from resting a couple of times in a row, I was curious what was going to happen once you reach 0 and was pleasantly surprised it was indeed game over. wink


Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

This is what concerns me about BG3. It seems like D:OS/DA hybrid, not even D:OS/BG hybrid.


Exactly, which is why I wrote that long ass post of mine. wink I don't want another DOS/DA hybrid clone. Truth be told, I never finished DOS2, got to act 3, got bored (might finish it one day), cause there were too many fights and too little story (y'know, the big setpiece fights Larian does so well). And I play RPGs for the story, not for the combat, sure, fun combat is a +. but it shouldn't be all the entire game is centered around.

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Would you happen to be another victim of DA:I disappointment? wink


Yes, I legit could be replaying DAO forever, storywise it was THAT good, but DAI? 1 time is enough. DAI.... it plays more like an MMO than an RPG, pretty, but inconsequential. Also, I hate how they retconned the qun, qunari, elves, elven gods, humans, dwarves etc and thought nobody would notice...

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

NPC schedules (basic, day/night, it's no TES with NPC taking weekly trips) would be indeed amazing. The world would feel like less of a setpiece.


Yes, indeed, I hate how static everything is right now. Hell, in BG1/2, depending on the time of day, certain shop keepers would turn in for the night only to reappear come dawn. Something like that would be amazing in BG3... but like I said, I might be too hopeful.

PS: I love your nickname 'Uncle Lester'. Ah, the little zombie encounter in Athkatla's graveyard. laugh

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Pretty much anything that adds to the realism of the setting is going to get my agreement. A day/night cycle and weather would go a long way in this department, provided its well implemented and there are things like a penalty to vision (and movement) while moving in rain. Hopefully they consider adding these mechanics, as well as npc schedules, but I suspect its not going to happen frown

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+1 imo a day/night cycle being added to bg3, while maybe an undertaking at this stage of ea, would only work to enhance the game (obligatory 'the originals had it')

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Originally Posted by Nicottia
exactly, I don't understand how Larian seems to be unable to do that, given their budget. Like how many copies of BG3 has Larian sold in a month now? I remember it was ~1milion not even a week in. Now couple of weeks further, I think they've definitely outsold DOS2, and BG3 is not even out yet.

Also, I've never played Pathfinder Kingmaker, it's been sitting on my wishlist on steam, been planning to get it one day on a sale or something, so far everyone seems to be praising that game and I have to admit, I'm hella curious myself.

I should probably premise that it's not, by any stretch, a flawless game.
For one I always hated its cartoony, "WoW-esque" art style and it got some time to grow used to it.
Also, I admittedly tried to play and then quickly abandoned the game up to three times before finally enjoying it when the "turn-based mod" came out (which on a positive note is not required anymore, since now they integrated the turn-based battles natively as an option).
I absolutely could never enjoy playing it in RTWP, as I can hardly enjoy the current alpha of its sequel for the same reason... But that's probably a matter of personal taste.

Here's what Pathfinder does:
- First, it gives you an overall party penalty to travel speed on the world map according to what you are carrying, and that penalty is MEANINGFUL, making the "leave down trash loot and pick up only valuable things" a perfectly legitimate (and possibly even optimal) strategy.
- Second, it gives the party the option between doing a quick rest/camping of 8 hours using fairly heavy prepacked rations... OR without carrying any of those, but spending more time hunting in the area for food (this can go up to 16 or even 24 hours). When you are in dungeon, only the former is an option since your men can't hunt.
- Third. When the player is camping on the world map, it's just the click of a button and you'll see a simple UI where you decide who goes on guard, who hunts, who cooks, who scouts for enemies, etc. When doing the same in dungeon, the player is required to find a suitable open area and to have cleaned enemies in the surrounding. In both cases the party members start bantering with each other. In both cases you can be eventually ambushed by enemies.
- Fourth, to make all the previous systems "come online" together and have meaning, the game gives you occasional time limits, both with positive reinforcement (an extra reward to stay under a certain deadline) and negative ones (some quests can fail if you take too much time).

It's all brilliant, really. The downside of it is that the game mixes excellent implementations of these ideas with some utter bullshit.

For an example of the former, you have the first major goal in the game (killing/dethroning a robber baron/brigand leader in charge of the region) and you can complete the goal under a month (quite tight and it will need for you to travel light and rest as little as possible, but still manageable exploring and completing 100% of the starting region) to get an exceptional bonus reward (a superlative +2 Dueling Sword that has almost no equals at that point of the game) OR complete the same goal under three months to not face a game over (and this is a walk in the park. There is almost NO way to waste that much time unless you'll go out of your way to rest every two steps).
I loved this shit, and managing the first goal was incredibly satisfying and immersive (it was nice to feel the pressure of the clock ticking, while still having the time to appreciate everything the game offered up to that point).

As a bad example of the latter, on the other hand, later in the game you have HIDDEN doom clocks that can make the entire campaign fail if you took too much time to chase your main goal. To be fair, once you are aware of them and understand the game mechanics they are rarely particularly pressing, but still, it's VERY BAD that in some case you can't even realize they are there because the game is rather obfuscating about how pressing the urgency can actually be.

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Originally Posted by Nicottia
I will admit, I played FO1 couple of times, first time when I was like... 7yr old? I know, it's not a game for children and stuff, I'm surprised my mother even let me play it, after I questioned her about meaning of certain words I didn't understand (different words that basically meant 'prostitute', 'intercourse' etc.), any sane parent would be in panic, I remember she told me something along the lines of: 'at lest your vocabulary is expanding'.


Ahaha, mine would be like "wait a couple of years". BG was fine though, but I'm guessing that's because she didn't know any details. Played Fallout just a couple of years ago though - now those were some old, cumbersome mechanics. I was at a loss at the first rat fight, haha.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
And speaking of MotB, don't be scared, if you keep the spirit eater fed (via consuming spirits, duh), nothing bad will happen, and there are plenty of spirits scattered around, what I used to do was, once I reached like 40% I ate a spirit, got 100% and then rested, which, if I remember correctly, would put you at 90 or 80%, so it's pretty easy to manage. There was only one area that I can think of that was a bit troublesome, cause there was nothing for the spirit eater to consume, but aside from that, it's very easy and manageable. Don't worry and I really recommend that game! Also, that example of game over was from resting a couple of times in a row, I was curious what was going to happen once you reach 0 and was pleasantly surprised it was indeed game over.


Thank you, I'm a bit relieved. laugh I've heard great things about MotB otherwise, including comparisons to P:T. That's something.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
Yes, I legit could be replaying DAO forever, storywise it was THAT good, but DAI? 1 time is enough. DAI.... it plays more like an MMO than an RPG, pretty, but inconsequential. Also, I hate how they retconned the qun, qunari, elves, elven gods, humans, dwarves etc and thought nobody would notice...


Most of the things I liked in DA:I was just production values. It had good graphics (sans hair; terrible hair!), beautiful 2D artstyle, good music, nice system of colour/fabric customization... But the gameplay and story? I absolutely love RTwP, but DA:I played like a pausable action MMO. The controls made me want to smash my keyboard (and I'm very much not the rage-against-the-peripherals type of person). I didn't like the story (especially Trespasser) and the worldbuilding was wonky at best (and I care a lot about worldbuilding). Oh yeah, and random loot, a pet peeve of mine. At least this game made me respect my time more. I have about 270 hours on Skyrim (a game I consider flawed and unfocused) and I don't regret it. I have almost the same on DA:I and most of it was a complete waste. (Sorry, I'm always ready to go on a rant on DA:I. Nevermind me, carry on. :P )

Originally Posted by Nicottia
PS: I love your nickname 'Uncle Lester'. Ah, the little zombie encounter in Athkatla's graveyard.


Haha, thank you! I love this encounter. On the topic of complimenting each other's internet personas, I really like your avatar. wink

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Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.


Originally Posted by Nicottia
So, unless, our little trip to Avernus in BG3, fucked the fabric of space and time entirely, then Larian has no excuse as to why we have no day/night cycle. They could even make it like it was in NWN2 (base game) cosmetic only. It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.


+1 , Please Larian, invest some of that sweet profit made in EA to implement a Day/night system, I know you want it....


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I would love to see a day-night cycle too, one of the best things about pathfinder kingmaker for me was the fact the game had even snowfall with the coming of winter. Doubt that will be something in bg3, but a day-night cycle would add quite a bit of mood to the game, I want to see Baldurs gate as a city at night! Sneaking with current mechanics could potentially be too strong at night though, I am not sure.

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