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Originally Posted by Svalr
I agree about making Eldritch Blast purple tho, I still like how it looks right now but I think that giving it color either red or purple would look better.

Originally Posted by LukasPrism
It looks cool right now but the rainbow effects make it look more like a Divine spell. Would be good if they could put some standards in place (eg. divine radiant spells have the white hot rainbow effect like EB currently has, force spells could be purple – including Bigby’s Hand).

Originally Posted by Popsculpture
i think w should be able to customize the color of Eldritch Blast; I always described mine as Green in games I've played.


This is the relevant 5e description of the spell, for what's it worth:[Linked Image]

I agree that it would be cool if Eldritch Blast was customisable to some extent, even if it was just colour.


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Fundamentally I agree with most of what the OP is saying.

I don't particularly mind the HP bloat in principle if it's balanced right, but right now it pretty much railroads you into using ranged attack roll type spells so you can benefit from the ubiquitous advantage. I just gave up on using Sacred Flame on Shadowheart because it never hits, even with a -1 DEX mod she was more useful with a crossbow. Secondly, it makes absolutely no sense for a goblin child to have more HP than your character, even at level 1. Adventurers are supposed to be exceptional examples of their race/class.

The spell UI/hotbar needs a serious overhaul. I've seen a couple of great suggestions on this forum already so i hope they go one of those routes to streamline it.

Also, they really need to improve the targeting on magic missile, it is supposed to auto hit as long as you can see your target, so losing a missile because there was a twig in the way is very irritating.

Finally, I know a lot of people see the Sapphire Spark as quite overpowered, and I agree it is very strong, but I think that is partly because right now we're limited to first and second level spells. As soon as you hit class level 5 and gain access to fireball or lightning bolt, and a second damage die on cantrips the wizard's core abilities will start to feel a lot stronger. I see the necklace as a thing that is a great helper for wizards in act 1 to make them feel more powerful, but later on it is going to become less and less relevant as you gain higher level spells and use your level 1 slots more for utility purposes like Mage Armor/Find Familiar. Another thing to consider is that you may find something much better for your neck slot later in the game, I'm not sure I would use that necklace over something like an amulet of health if they ever make one available.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
[quote=Svalr]
***snip***

My problem is not the lv cap. Is the low lv cap in a "epic" campaign. You don't fight dragons nor enter on the underdark and do epic things on BG1. It is restricted to BG2.

Or you have a Dungeons & Kobolds game
Or you have a game where the PC's enter the underdark and escape a mindflayer ship.

You can't have both.

And I was talking about Eldritch Blast and adult goblins on P&P has 6 hp. On game, goblin children has 15 hp. 5e is already the slowest edition, not counting 4e which isn't D&D. Why make things even more bloated?




Isn't difficulty level determined by the DIFFERENCE between yourself and the enemy?


Great last words.

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Originally Posted by Ayath The Loafer


Isn't difficulty level determined by the DIFFERENCE between yourself and the enemy?


Amount of enemies, AI of the enemy, scenario, amount of enemies, formation of the enemies, position of the enemies, spells of the enemies, eqquipment of the enemies(...) everything influences on the difficulty. Bullet sponge enemies are just the WORST and LAZIEST way to make difficulty.

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I don't get why Larian made BG3 if is not to be faithful to P&P nor to BG1/2...

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Well, making a good game is more important than sticking to the rules. After all, the game will be judged primarily as a game, not p&p (at least it won't matter much).
Larian has a lot of experience in turn-based games, so if they think something isn't going to work well in the game, I'm able to believe them.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 31/10/20 07:11 PM.
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They have experience in making DOS2*, which happens to have turn based mechanics. Lets not conflate the two.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Orbax
They have experience in making DOS2*, which happens to have turn based mechanics. Lets not conflate the two.



And DOS2 had tons of problems people dont like to address, namely the dps race for Armor shred. Encounters end when armor is off.

Thank god this game doesn't have that awful system

Also surfaces go from annoying to non existent as every peasant, cat and dog learns to fly by act 2. The non existent ending for your own character.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Well, making a good game is more important than sticking to the rules. After all, the game will be judged primarily as a game, not p&p (at least it won't matter much).


Sorry but even ignoring P&P rules. HAving a lv cap warlock who adventured into the underdark and escaped an mindflayer spelljammer ship unable to kill an goblin child with the max roll on eldritch blast buffed by agonizing blast is not "making a good game"

Spending hours in trash encounters and resting after each encounter is not a good game

Having a awful one summon limit is not a good game.

Wanna see a good game? Check BG1/2.

Originally Posted by Orbax
They have experience in making DOS2*, which happens to have turn based mechanics. Lets not conflate the two.


DOS2 is nothing compared to D&D. Trying to make 5e more DOS like is what is killing this game.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Well, making a good game is more important than sticking to the rules. After all, the game will be judged primarily as a game, not p&p (at least it won't matter much).


Sorry but even ignoring P&P rules. HAving a lv cap warlock who adventured into the underdark and escaped an mindflayer spelljammer ship unable to kill an goblin child with the max roll on eldritch blast buffed by agonizing blast is not "making a good game"

Spending hours in trash encounters and resting after each encounter is not a good game

Having a awful one summon limit is not a good game.

Wanna see a good game? Check BG1/2.

Originally Posted by Orbax
They have experience in making DOS2*, which happens to have turn based mechanics. Lets not conflate the two.


DOS2 is nothing compared to D&D. Trying to make 5e more DOS like is what is killing this game.


Opinion is opinion. You may not agree with me, but the truth is that my opinion is as important as yours.
In my opinion, if something kills the game, it will be something completely different.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Well, making a good game is more important than sticking to the rules. After all, the game will be judged primarily as a game, not p&p (at least it won't matter much).


Sorry but even ignoring P&P rules. HAving a lv cap warlock who adventured into the underdark and escaped an mindflayer spelljammer ship unable to kill an goblin child with the max roll on eldritch blast buffed by agonizing blast is not "making a good game"

Spending hours in trash encounters and resting after each encounter is not a good game

Having a awful one summon limit is not a good game.

Wanna see a good game? Check BG1/2.

Originally Posted by Orbax
They have experience in making DOS2*, which happens to have turn based mechanics. Lets not conflate the two.


DOS2 is nothing compared to D&D. Trying to make 5e more DOS like is what is killing this game.


Opinion is opinion. You may not agree with me, but the truth is that my opinion is as important as yours.
In my opinion, if something kills the game, it will be something completely different.


Do you know anyone who picked BG2 and made a mod to force you to have only one summon? To bloat enemy HP? Everyone hates LoB difficulty cuz is just an HP bloat. I soloed it as a necromancer cuz I have OHK spells. And even as a necro, was tedious in some parts.

Nobody likes hp bloat and summon limits. If people liked it, people would mod it into other games and exactly the opposite happens. All spell overhauls mods for nwn2, warlock reworked and spell fixes and new classes like dread necromancer class, REMOVES the single summon limit.

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+1 to everything the OP said except the first point.
I think you can be a low level little shit even in a much grander contest and still have fun smile

I expecially lik the comparison with nwn2 ui, I don't even remember how many time I brought up the same thing!

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Originally Posted by Sharet
+1 to everything the OP said except the first point.
I think you can be a low level little shit even in a much grander contest and still have fun smile

I expecially lik the comparison with nwn2 ui, I don't even remember how many time I brought up the same thing!


Tep. But magic guys only start to excel on mid to high level and on old editions of D&D, Paladins only get their spells at lv 9.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Long story short, I have played ToEE, IWD 1/2, NWN1/2, BG1/2(classic and EE), Pathfinder Kingmaker, Solasta, Dark Sun : Shattered Sands/Wake of the ravager, and tons of other games. By far, BG3 is the game where you fell more useless and your spells fells weaker. "but nwn2", not even nwn2 who destroyed most iconic spells, like animate dead, cloudkill, black tentacles, etc; reached the level of BG3. Why?


  • Low level dungeons & kobolds "epic" campaign
  • Ludicrous MMO like HP bloat without bloating spells
  • Artificial gear dependency.
  • Magical items are extremely mundane while powerful spells aren't
  • DOS style gimmicky everywhere
  • WORST ui to cast spells.


Now point for point

1 - Ridiculous low(4 EA/10 final) lv cap. That lv cap is so low and in a interview, they mentioned that the higher tier spells can't work in video games. Did anyone on that interview even played BG2:SoA and ToB???? This game implemented a lot of high level magic and even epic level magic on HLA. Wish is with very limitations on BG2. Same for stop time. In fact, you can fight enemies that cast stop time on the, before even reaching underdark.

And talking about underdark, an campaign which starts with a mindflayer ship fighting an draconic army and has you on underdark at chapter 1 should't be a low level campaign. You reach the underdark of the nwn1 : hotu on chapter 1 too however, hordes of the underdark expansion starts at lv 15. And the game gives a lot of XP to bumb you to epic level before chapter 2 where you fight dracoliches and mindflayer colonies.

Or you have a low level campaign or you have a epic campaign, you can't have both. Low level campaigns should start in a place like Candlekeep.

I'm not going to address the other points, but I did want to mention that BG1 had a relatively low level limit in the 5 -7 range IIRC. If Larian wants to produce a sequel (BG 4, yes?) it makes sense to leave some room for transferred characer(s) to have some headroom for more levels, yes? Much the same way BG1 characters transitioned into BG2, so might BG3 chracters transition into a sequel.

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Even Pathfinder made adjustments to the rules, most of them to account for RTWP.

So, sometimes changes have to be made.

HP Bloat has always been an issue in DnD.

5th edition is no more immune to that than the rest.

10th level Fighter will have on average, assuming 14 Con, 84 HP.
10th level Wizard will have, on average, assuming 14 Con, 63 HP.

The difference then becomes about Armor Class and Resources vs their actual HP.

A warrior can of course, without magical gear, get up to AC 22. Not easily, but they can get there. Plate Armor + Shield = AC 22. Add to that Fighting Style which gives them extra AC for wearing Armor and we've got AC 23. And we're not even talking any optional Feats that give them situational AC.

A wizard, barring magical gear, is reliant on their DEX, spending a spell slot, or taking an Armor Proficiency Feat. The Feat would cap them at AC 12 + DEX Bonus, the Spell would cap them at 13 + DEX Bonus, and of course raw DEX is just that, raw DEX.

Last edited by KentDA; 01/11/20 05:15 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Originally Posted by Jhelzei

I'm not going to address the other points, but I did want to mention that BG1 had a relatively low level limit in the 5 -7 range IIRC. If Larian wants to produce a sequel (BG 4, yes?) it makes sense to leave some room for transferred characer(s) to have some headroom for more levels, yes? Much the same way BG1 characters transitioned into BG2, so might BG3 chracters transition into a sequel.


Vincke already said that they don't plan to become a FR studio.

And BG1 is a low level? Yes. But the game starts on candlekeep. Not with a freaking mindflayer spelljammer ship fighting an draconic army... Hell, you can enter on underdark at lv 1 on BG3. do you know when you get into underdark on original BG? On Chapter 5 of the second game. And many people found encounters with beholders and mindflayers, drow, etc; too difficult.


Originally Posted by KentDA
Even Pathfinder made adjustments to the rules, most of them to account for RTWP.

(...)

HP Bloat has always been an issue in DnD.



Pathfinder adjustments actually made the game worse, like sneak attack being broken OP, with hellfire ray, you can apply 6 sneak attacks per round, compared to 1 on P&P. And sneak attack is easier to score on pfkm.

And HP bloat is not a problem on old school D&D.

Vecna, an demigod lich who rule an demiplane of shadows on vecna reborn? Has 150 hp. I saw low level spiders on BG3 close to the hit points of old school Vecna. Lv 0 commoners had d4 hp on 2e. On BG3, goblin children has 15 hp. So they require 3 shots of an heavy crossbow on average to goes down. That is ludicrous.

2e never had problems with hp bloat cuz :
1 - The con bonus to hp was negligible compared to 5e and lose a point of CON permanently was easy.
2 - Most classes had lower hit dices on average. Mages had d4.
3 - After lv 9, you get almost no hp.

Doubt? Here is the stats for Meredoth, page 122 of Domains of Dread. Here is a lv 20 dark lord stats
[Linked Image]

On 5e, the same character would have 20*(d6 + 2) or 110 hp(assuming 3.5 as average of d6), and on BG3, probably about 400 hp(assuming the same bloat of goblins) however, he would't have all powerful and nasty magical items and spells which makes him a hard foe even for high level parties.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 01/11/20 06:22 AM.
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Other thing. Is truth that Larian implemented a single summon limit?

Why not just REMOVE all casters then? Larian is doing everything that they can to destroy then...

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Larian has a lot of experience in turn-based games, so if they think something (RTwP) isn't going to work well in the game, I'm able to believe them.


It's like saying "these builders have a lot of experience in straw-houses, so if they think something (bricks) isn't going to work in this house, I'm able to believe them

It makes no sense.
This is not like if they already had a lot of bricks-house or... I don't know.... fully well working, succesfull and even legendary RTwP game. (not like the game Larian are developping claim to be the sequel of a RTwP which he take advantage of).

No sense Rhobar121.

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Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Larian has a lot of experience in turn-based games, so if they think something (RTwP) isn't going to work well in the game, I'm able to believe them.


It's like saying "these builders have a lot of experience in straw-houses, so if they think something (bricks) isn't going to work in this house, I'm able to believe them

It makes no sense.
This is not like if they already had a lot of bricks-house or... I don't know.... fully well working, succesfull and even legendary RTwP game. (not like the game Larian are developping claim to be the sequel of a RTwP which he take advantage of).

No sense Rhobar121.


Larian always prefered TB Divine divinity is real time due publisher pressures. However, what makes BG3 more DoS2 like instead of BG like isn't the TB. Is tons of other things

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