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Accepting Orbax advice, I’d like to state that I’m not native so go easy on me. That said, here are the arguments:

As everybody could see, Larian implemented a large number of homebrew rules in the Early Access of the game. Out of those new rules, only three of them have the greatest potential to render some classes useless and completely break the overall balance of the game.

My intention through this post is: Not to repeat what is being repeated over and over in this echo chamber of “this game feels like DOS3”. Instead, I’ll get the scenario “AS IS” of the game and explain what are the impacts of that changes in the current scenario & final release.

After reading this extensive text, is up to you to decide if you like it or not. I’m not here to convince you. Yet, if you think that this thing must be changed I’d like to ask for your help to pump the reach of this thread to reach as many comrades as possible and let them to decide whether it’s good or not.

I’ll throw those homebrews over the table:

Increased HP / Decreased AC
Advantage being given by high ground & backstab
Surfaces Effect

(just for this time being I'm leaving out of the debate dumb rules related to Actions to bonus actions for some features like shove and disengage)

I’m handling those 3 at the same time because the way they intertwine jeopardize the whole DnD5e mechanics.


Now, how Increased HP/Decreased AC harms the gaming experience? In the end you are hitting more so there’s a counterbalance to your foe HP to maintain the same number of turns needed to finish them. Well, that could be true IF the spell casters were out of the game.

I’ll start with spell values and action economy:

Even for the those who don’t have a deep understanding of DnD5e have already noticed that the number of spells you can cast is limited by the number of spells slots available to you (which are recovered every long rest). That means that spells are UNRELIABLE source of damage/utility. Once you spend all your spell slots, you’re done for and you can then only use Cantrips (which are a RELIABLE source of damage yet with the trade off of dishing smaller outputs of damage per round).

That said, those spells grows in value given the fact that they can definitely changes the odds of a battle. And why the hell am I using this spell slots as an argument for HP/AC?

Larian changed many things during the course of the Early Access. One thing they didn’t is the damage output of the weapon/cantrips attacks, spells damage & monsters attributes. Also, the number of spell slots remained the same.

It’s important to say that 99% of the spells forces your enemies to roll a saving throw based in a specific attribute (which was not altered). Which means: Spells in DnD5e & BG3 have THE SAME CHANCE TO HIT. Spell attacks like cantrips still targets foes AC but their scaling in damage output is very small compared to other classes like fighters (who get bonus attacks).


Case scenario:

Given an enemy with 7 HP 15AC (DnD5e) and the other with 13 HP 9AC (one of Larian’s goblins),

You cast Shatter(2nd level): Evocation 3d8 (BARD, SORC, LOCK, WIZ) – Dex saves for half – means that: even under a failure your UNRELIABLE spell slot would deal an average of 12 damage therefore killing the 7HP foe and not killing the 13 HP foe. Not to mention its value increase if multiple targets are within 10 foot radius.

First conclusion: Blasting Spells worth LESS in BG3 compared to DnD5e.

On the other hand, weapon attacks receive a boosted chance to hit due to the low AC & were given a new rule of getting advantage in high ground & backstab, boosting the chance to hit even further.

Second conclusion: Blasting Spells lost its value even more. (2x Nerf)


What about utility spells? Now let’s get deeper into the Advantage system in DnD5e and I’ll mention spells that can benefit out of some of them

There’s a list of situations where you’ll get advantage and I’ve added the spells that causes it.

Attack rolls made by a blinded creature have disadvantage. (Deafness / Blind, blinding smite, color spray, contagion, divine word, holy aura/weapon, sunbeam, sunburst)
Attack rolls against a blinded target have advantage. (Deafness / Blind, blinding smite, color spray, contagion, divine word, holy aura/weapon, sunbeam, sunburst)
Attack rolls against an invisible target have disadvantage. (invisibility & greater invisibility)
Attack rolls made by an invisible creature have advantage. (invisibility & greater invisibility)
Attack rolls against a paralyzed target have advantage. (Hold Person)
Attack rolls against a petrified target have advantage. (Flesh to Stone)
Attack rolls and ability checks made by a poisoned creature have disadvantage. (ray of sickness)
Attack rolls against a prone target have advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet, or disadvantage otherwise. (Tashas hideous laughter, Destructive wave, earthquake, sleet storm, thunderous smite, Grease, etc)
Attack rolls made by a prone creature have disadvantage.(Destructive wave, earthquake, sleet storm, thunderous smite, Grease, etc)
Attack rolls against a restrained target have advantage.(Poor Grapple :()
Attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws made by a restrained creature have disadvantage.(Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Mental Prison, Telekinesis, Web, Whirlwind, Transmute Rock, Snare, and many more)
Attack rolls against a stunned target have advantage. (Stunning strike – Monk, Contagion, Divine Word, Psychic Scream, Symbol)
Attack rolls against an unconscious target have advantage. (Catnap, Eyebite, Sleep, Symbol)
A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight. (Fear, Eyebite, Hallow, Illusionary Dragon, Phantasmal Killer, Symbol, Wrathful smite)

It gets better:
Fairie Fire: advantage 60ft against enemies who fail a dex saving throw

Stealth Attacks : advantage for any attacks against an enemy that cannot see you

& Increased/decreased accuracy spells: True Strike (Yeah this cantrip sucks), Bless & Bane (when you have advantage those spells adds so little to your chance to hit compared to when you have them under normal circumstances)

Barb Reckless Attack (CORE MECHANIC): You receive advantage to your melee attacks while getting disadvantage against you. & Barb path of the totem warrior (wolf) which make closer targets to get disavantage

Cleric Guiding Bolt, shadow blade, Ottos irresistible dance, shocking grasp, and some more

Phew, that was a large list of things that got their outputs diminished by that simple homebrew smile


Why is it bless (or any spell that boots your accuracy) less effective in BG3:

Let’s do some math with actual numbers:

Goblin 15 AC : Standard hero with +2 prof +3 Attribute modifier = +5 attack rolls

Chance to hit: 55%

Now Bless it (average of +2)

Chance to hit: 65%

65/55=+18% variation

Now take the hero with advantage:

Chance to hit:75%

Now Bless it (average of +2)

Chance to hit: 85%

85/75=+13% variation to your accuracy


If Advantage is dished every single turn your spells will worth less frown


Isn't it silly to have bless output diminished? now let's do the very same exercise of Bless in BG3



Goblin 9 AC : Standard hero with +2 prof +3 Attribute modifier = +5 attack rolls

Chance to hit: 85%

Now Bless it (average of +2)

Chance to hit: 95%

95/85=+11% variation

Now take the hero with advantage:

Chance to hit:99%

Now Bless it (average of +2)

Chance to hit: 99%

99/99=+0% variation to your accuracy

Yes, your valuable bless spell lost 100% of its value!



Dear tactical adventurer that loves the flavor that Larian added with advange homebrew, do you still thinks it’s a good idea to lower the outputs of that spells granting advantage in abundance?

I’m not done yet

Now, lets add surfaces into play.

Now, your utility spell that rely on concentration (the great majority of them by the way) can be easily broken with a goblin trowing a bomb smile

That UNRELIABLE spell that you’ve saved for that magical situation were broken by a bomb. Oh, not to mention that you’ve succeed the Save but you took that surface damage that is RELIABLE because it do not miss.

Also, more HP means that against that paralyzed foe will takes more times to be defeated because of the HP bloat, meaning that you’ll need more turns to keep concentrating on and higher are the chances to have your concentration broken until your enemy is dealt with…

Conclusion:

Spell value DnD5e >>>>>>>>>>>>Spell value of BG3

Who cares? Spells don’t even exist in RL.

You know why people who knows DnD5e don’t complain about weapon skills homebrew? Guess what? Because they simply don’t break the game.

Larian’s reasons are: Players do not like to miss.

WotC agree with this, that’s why they’ve added TONS of spells to give you that desirable accuracy.

Want to balance the game
Easy – Reduce the values of attributes & Attributes Evenly and/or double damage value outputs.
Hard - Reduce the values of attributes & Attributes Evenly and/or cuts in half damage value outputs.


Want to feel that you’re the king of the hill with homebew– Adds a RAW +2 damage
Or implement cover system from DnD5e. All of that works. Advantage don’t.

There’s no need for breaking the value outputs of the spells to in order to see that hp value popping out of your foes heads every single turn.

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Do we really need another topic about the same?

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


Seriously?

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I can see what Larian is trying to do but it throws off 5e design balance too much. If I were DMing I'd never run these values; my casters would be furious.

Also..it's ok to miss attacks. That's kind of the point of D&D

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Interresting.

Even if I'm strongly against HP+/AC- for many reasons, as a non D&D player this kind of topic allow me to understand a little bit more the entire consequences, and allow me to think about other exemples and things I wouldn't have necessarily thought of.

Thank you, another fact that tend to show Larian's decisions unbalanced the experience more than they should.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 31/10/20 09:13 PM.
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+1 the many homebrew rules mixed into DnD 5e combat system have created a slippery slope that will get even worse deeper into the PC levels and CR of monsters

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


This is actually making a different point than just spells r different rabble rabble, it is talking about the ultimate outcome of the matrix of spells, advantages, and ac/hp the class effect. I thought it was pretty thought provoking.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by CinderV
I can see what Larian is trying to do but it throws off 5e design balance too much. If I were DMing I'd never run these values; my casters would be furious.

Also..it's ok to miss attacks. That's kind of the point of D&D


I quite agree. If our DM would use homebrew rules like BG 3, at least 3 players out of a 5 man group would most likely rage & quit in disgust. Using some homebrew is ok, of course, but not when it throws balance and/or core mechanics out of the window.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


Yes, we do. Because it's already an issue and it will only get more pronounced with more classes, feats, spells and levels.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


Yes, because it is a problem. The more topics explaining with reasons and examples, the more visible it get, the more likely it'll be fixed.

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+1

Very well laid-out, cudos on raising an important issue Sludge Khalid! I have been thinking the same the past few days. I kind of regret my early defence of Larian with regards to this game becoming more like DOS3 than BG3 and the radical homebrew situation makes me wonder if they ever tried to be more faithful to the D&D system.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
+1

Very well laid-out, cudos on raising an important issue Sludge Khalid! I have been thinking the same the past few days. I kind of regret my early defence of Larian with regards to this game becoming more like DOS3 than BG3 and the radical homebrew situation makes me wonder if they ever tried to be more faithful to the D&D system.


Thank you, Seraphael.

That’s a single line of the thread that I’ve pulled off. Yet, there’s plenty of another problems that should be addressed. For now, focusing in that 3 points would solve 80% of the balance problems. The more people talk about it, the better will be its reach. If you participate in other communities feel free to use it the way you like it.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


My thoughts exactly, same posters opening same shitty topics every day.

Will they give it a rest already? This has to be consolidated into some megathreads and let them duke it out there, instead of them opening bloody same topic every day with a different toppings and side dishes.

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Great feedback with good examples. +3
The point of existence of this forum are these kind of posts.

Too bad that for Larian the forum area is more of a <steam relief> area than anything else.
Haven't seen a single post by them showing they care of what people think here. And they should, since it takes time to address these changes.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


My thoughts exactly, same posters opening same shitty topics every day.

Will they give it a rest already? This has to be consolidated into some megathreads and let them duke it out there, instead of them opening bloody same topic every day with a different toppings and side dishes.


Simple tip. See a topic about something that you want to hear, don’t open it.
Nice arguments by the way. Bye smile

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Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


My thoughts exactly, same posters opening same shitty topics every day.

Will they give it a rest already? This has to be consolidated into some megathreads and let them duke it out there, instead of them opening bloody same topic every day with a different toppings and side dishes.


Simple tip. See a topic about something that you want to hear, don’t open it.
Nice arguments by the way. Bye smile


OR... you can just post in that one same thread that serves absolutely same purpose and not spam forums with this obsessive garbage rebuilding castles out of sand every other day.

It's really irksome at some point and as you can see, I'm not the only one thinking this way.

Yes we know the elevation advantage is the devil and Larian using optional rule from page 252 of the book about positional advantage is the destroyer of vaunted 5e balance. And clearly goblins with more HP and less AC is the sacrilege against the holy scripture that is Monster Manual. We got it already. We don't need 500th thread for this.

Cheers.

Last edited by Gaidax; 31/10/20 11:59 PM.
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Did you give it a charitable, honest try at understanding what it is saying? Because I hadn't seen this point made before and I thought it was fairly surprising what the implications were for spell and martial efficacy and where the economy gets channeled for spell casters. AFter 280 hours, reading that clicked and I had subconsciously fallen into that pattern. I don't play like this at all in D&D when im spell casting, but this game totally changed where my focus goes to.

I understand if you had arrived at those conclusions already, but I hadn't seen it. Can you link to one of the threads?


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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You are honestly arguing that BG3 makes casters less powerful than martials? You do realize the power of casters increases exponentially at every level while martials do so in a linear way, right? You also know spellcasters derive a lot of utility from their spells while martials can only hit things, I suppose?

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Originally Posted by Tulkash01
You are honestly arguing that BG3 makes casters less powerful than martials? You do realize the power of casters increases exponentially at every level while martials do so in a linear way, right? You also know spellcasters derive a lot of utility from their spells while martials can only hit things, I suppose?


Did you actually read my thread? I guess not because my whole point was to dive deep into utility spells and how the game mechanics as is don’t favor them at all in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Do we really need another topic about the same?


My thoughts exactly, same posters opening same shitty topics every day.

Will they give it a rest already? This has to be consolidated into some megathreads and let them duke it out there, instead of them opening bloody same topic every day with a different toppings and side dishes.


Simple tip. See a topic about something that you want to hear, don’t open it.
Nice arguments by the way. Bye smile


OR... you can just post in that one same thread that serves absolutely same purpose and not spam forums with this obsessive garbage rebuilding castles out of sand every other day.

It's really irksome at some point and as you can see, I'm not the only one thinking this way.

Yes we know the elevation advantage is the devil and Larian using optional rule from page 252 of the book about positional advantage is the destroyer of vaunted 5e balance. And clearly goblins with more HP and less AC is the sacrilege against the holy scripture that is Monster Manual. We got it already. We don't need 500th thread for this.

Cheers.


Bye smile

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My takeaway from that information is that given the way it is set up, certain classic "gimme" spells, the kinds where you almost feel like they shouldn't count towards your spell selection because you WILL pick and use them...I don't use them as much. I know its fashionable to dump on martials, but ive played juuust about all classes in D&D and I think all classes are great. I love being a battlemaster fighter and as much as I love my wizard and trickery cleric. What I am doing now in this game is using spells like ray of sickness and acid arrow as "fuck it" spells, magic missile is a joke and is mainly to clean up enemies that have 3 hp left so I don't waste a martial's turn. Or I am buffing them, or debuffing enemies. I save spell slots as the cleric for healing which, if you play D&D, clerics tend to be more damage oriented than healing oriented these days. Now I just hang out, sacred flame, and keep everyone running and ignore a lot of fun spells because of the round length introduced by hp & initiative length in fights means more healing.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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