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Originally Posted by vel
Disco Elysium was an interactive book. Just walls of text everywhere. It's a shame they paid off so many reviewers.


Paid off reviewers? Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. It's critically-acclaimed because it's brilliant. Did they "pay off" the 21,343 positive user reviews on Steam, too? (94% of all user reviews.)

Not everyone is terrified of reading.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit


Hordes of the Underdark was forgettable and I'm always surprised to find people who enjoyed it. I mean it wasn't bad but I can only vaguely remember the plot and I hated the engine itself.

So it seems a good analogue in that ToEE has the right engine but I think to compare Hordes to Bg3 is a comparison that isn't kind to BG3.




Well, that was what I compared just because those two games came out in the same year, like Solasta and BG3. There was nothing else that came out at the same time as ToEE to compare it to.

But I did really like Hordes of the Underdark. I mean, it's no Planescape: Torment or Mask of the Betrayer, but it was worlds better than the Neverwinter Nights 1 original campaign.

Edit: The other thing that was dope about HotU was that it was one of the very, very few D&D video game campaigns that started at a high level, instead of being level 1 scrubs AGAIN.

Last edited by Firesnakearies; 04/11/20 04:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco


I also wished someone warned me upfront that these goddamn yellow NPCs were just regurgitating shitty fanfictions written by Kickstarter backer when I started it for the first time.




Oh god, those were awful. I read every single one of those, out loud, on my stream, and it was physically painful. I was so glad when they didn't put those in Deadfire.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
In 2003, Temple of Elemental Evil came out. In the same year, Hordes of the Underdark (for Neverwinter Nights) also came out. The first game was extremely faithful to the then-current 3.5 ruleset, but was bland and unmemorable. The second game took much greater liberties with the D&D rules, but had much better story, characters, creative and epic adventure designs and locations, music, and other game elements.

Everyone who is in the know about D&D games and the CRPG subgenre says that Temple of Elemental Evil is the most accurate D&D adaptation in a video game. The implementation of MECHANICS is highly praised. But no one ever says that they loved it, or that it's one of their favorite D&D games. Conversely, people still talk about Hordes of the Underdark all the time, and many people remember it well and love it. It's considered the best part of Neverwinter Nights by a wide margin.

I think history repeats itself. Solasta is Temple of Elemental Evil again. Baldur's Gate 3 is Hordes of the Underdark.


Wonderfully said, and absolutely true. NWN as a whole was also wonderfully wrought as the "bones" for a creative campaign or online ongoing world run by players. Hordes had loads of character and was beautifully designed but quite imperfect as to following the mantra of the official ruleset. Bioware understood that a game that is fun, and allows creativity and exploration trumps sticking to rules that don't quite fit into a modern computer game, because they were designed for another medium entirely.

When someone turns a beloved book into a film, a good director will make changes to tailor the material so that is presented in the best light to suit the rigors of cinema. The "rules" of literature are altered. There have been films that were pretty exactly like the book they were based on, and they are without exception dreadful things, lacking life and generally clumsy and without substance.

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Temple of Elemental Evil was a complete commercial flop (like most of the games made by Troika), while HoTU was the expansion of NWN, a commercial success.

Personally I think ToEE is leagues better than ANYTHING with the NWN name attached on it when it comes to gameplay and combat.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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ToEE's pathfinding scarred my soul.

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I found "pathfinding" mostly irrelevant in games that let you full control of your actions.
It's not like I'm clicking and sending the party half nation afar, usually.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Temple Of Elemental Evil isn't remembered that fondly because it was a simple dungeon crawl based on a really old tabletop campaign, and its encounter design was so-so (the endless waves of bugbears in the titular temple, etc.). It was also written by Tim Cain, a mainly programmer who's admitted to sucking at writing since. The mechanical foundations for a great game have been there, but mechanics purely can only take you so far. It's like having great weapon mechanics in a shooter game but then not the level and encounter content to let them shine. Maybe a follow-up project, one in which Troika could have focused on the content rather than the engine, would have fared better.

I've personally never played Hordes Of The Underdark, because the main campaign of NWN was even more lacklustre. It's the worst thing of Bioware I've ever played. It was clearly an afterthought/demo of what the toolset would be capable of at best, which is where the main ressources were spent. After BG, that was a big blow to somebody who expected anything roughly onpar. Maybe I should give it a try, I've heard good things about it. I'm not a graphics whore, but admittedly I nowadays unlike BG find it hard/er to get back into NWN in parts because visually it has aged terribly (development that started back in the 90s took really long and was low poly even for its day). Doesn't help that its art direction had always been lacklustre and everything is tile-based same, same looking due to the requirements of the toolset.

Last edited by Sven_; 04/11/20 08:37 AM.
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Yeah, there's a specific period of a few years where every 3D game that came out during that time looks like absolute ass today. Really turns me off from those games, even though some of them were great games. But Hordes of the Underdark is pretty good, anyway.

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Originally Posted by vel
Given the underwhelming latest patch (is Larian listening to any of the gameplay feedback?!?!) I posit that the best thing about Baldur's Gate 3 is actually that people have mentioned Pathfinder Kingmaker (PK) and Solasta Crown of the Magister.

I somehow played Pillars of Eternity (PoE), FF15, Octopath, Fire Emblem 3H, Witcher, DOS/2, Icewind, BG1, BG2, the list goes on. I am looking forward to Cyberpunk. Yet somehow I'd missed Pathfinder Kingmaker a couple years back and Solasta a few days ago.

I'm thankful to everyone who's mentioned PK and Solasta on the forums. They're good D&D RPGs in their own ways. I'm enjoying PK on Nvidia Geforce Now after a couple of runs through BG3 on Stadia.




Pathfinder isn't a DnD game. Pathfinder is it's own game. Sure it's derivative of DnD 3.5 edition, but still.

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Pathfinder is close enough to D&D that many people just consider it another type of D&D.

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I love with a complete lack of interest and feedback from devs on this forum most threads devolve into discussions about other games lol.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
I love with a complete lack of interest and feedback from devs on this forum most threads devolve into discussions about other games lol.


I mean... this thread evolved into a civil, quite in-depth discussion about the different RPGs out there and their merits. This is not strictly about BG3 (or not only), but it is a discussion that might be somewhat helpful - or just interesting - for the devs.

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Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/

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Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/


it does, and it did for the last three years I followed it. To the point I'm getting a bit discouraged.
Especially since their previous production, Chaos Chronicles, was shut down by their publisher when it got (allegedly) really close to completion.


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Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/


I have very mixed feelings on this. It looks great until I look at a screenshot showcasing combat. Oh well, maybe the story/world will be good enough that it will be worth suffering through combat.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/


I have very mixed feelings on this. It looks great until I look at a screenshot showcasing combat. Oh well, maybe the story/world will be good enough that it will be worth suffering through combat.

No different than suffering through BG3 combat.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/


I have very mixed feelings on this. It looks great until I look at a screenshot showcasing combat. Oh well, maybe the story/world will be good enough that it will be worth suffering through combat.

No different than suffering through BG3 combat.


Fair point. Though at least the visuals are better in BG3? (Idk why I dislike the combat look in Realms Beyond so much, the rest of the game looks very nice. Not that visuals are the most important thing in the world, but the style for some reason puts me off. That on top of TB.)

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What no Pillars of Eternity and Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire, I really enjoyed those games. Just like I enjoyed Pathfinder: Kingmaker and waiting for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous to come out

Last edited by Iszaryn; 07/11/20 05:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
Don't forget about Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen, it looks excellent as well.

https://www.realms-beyond.com/


I have very mixed feelings on this. It looks great until I look at a screenshot showcasing combat. Oh well, maybe the story/world will be good enough that it will be worth suffering through combat.

No different than suffering through BG3 combat.


Fair point. Though at least the visuals are better in BG3? (Idk why I dislike the combat look in Realms Beyond so much, the rest of the game looks very nice. Not that visuals are the most important thing in the world, but the style for some reason puts me off. That on top of TB.)

Ah ok. Yeah the visuals are weak (and by contrast the one thing I can unequivocally say is awesome right now about BG3). But because RB is 3.5e D&D and has party size of six, I actually am much more invested in that game than even Solasta. And then also Black Geyser.

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