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I just want them to give a more realistic dialogue, something a normal person would ACTUALLY SAY when talking to people in the game's universe.

It's hard to explain this but I wish we are allowed to say things that make sense like...
- "Those goblins will kill you too" when talking to the Druids who say he didn't help because "it's not our job to fight your battles"
- "That hag just killed your brothers" when talking to Mayrina AFTER killing the hag (you can say it before but what's stopping you from saying it afterwards?)
- "Then let me go with you" when talking to the brothers about the hag
- "You're doing the same thing as Wyll, you've got no right to talk Shadowheart" about Shadowheart talking about Wyll and his secrets
- "I found a dying druid caught by the goblins, he needs healing" after saving Findal when you can't heal him for some reason

It's as if you are assumed to be a dumb warrior even you are playing a smart character, an example of this is Gale saying "you're staring at me like a Rashemi in a blackboard, you're no wizard aren't you?" even if you are one and he asks again if you are a healer even if you just told him you are a wizard/warlock.

Considering we are allowed to be given a choice about our character's stats, class and even origin. It feels like we are only allowed to play the dumb character when it comes to dialogue, especially when talking or having arguments with major NPCs.

Look at the game Neverwinter Nights. It's also DnD based and probably has more realistic dialogue than most games nowadays (if you have 14+ Wisdom).

if Delphine from Skyrim is in Neverwinter Nights, you'd be allowed to say to her...
"That dragon you want me to kill helped me fight the World Eater while I'm trying to learn Dragonrend. What are you doing at that time? Sitting in your Sky Haven Temple?"
if you have a 14+ Wisdom.


Good point from someone on reddit (not from me)
"It feels like a worse version of Skyrim, because everyone is as bad as Delphine: you're just assumed to be clueless and all the NPCs love to insult you for daring to interact with them. It's like the game punishes you for being curious. I think they're forgetting that the player's enjoyment of the game should be paramount, not writing us to make us look dumb and their NPCs oh-so-sassy and witty."

Last edited by cn3ps; 07/11/20 11:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by cn3ps
- "That hag just killed your brothers" when talking to Mayrina after killing the hag


That's actually in the game, the catch: you need to tell Mayrina before the Hag teleport her in the cave.

Originally Posted by cn3ps
- "You're doing the same thing as Wyll, you've got no right to talk Shadowheart" about Shadowheart talking about Wyll and his secrets


She's not keeping secrets, she reveals things on a need to know basis. wink

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+1

Much of the dialogue is at best unconvincing

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I'm currently playing "Game of the Year" Dragon Age: Inquisition and the dialogue even in early access BG3 is so much better than Bioware's that I'm at a loss of words. This goes for both the general level of the writing and the voice actor presentation. For your average NPC and companions. Still obviously there are some rough patches, but nothing major.

That said I wouldn't mind more "stupid" options/locked out of smart options for those who use intelligence as a dump stat. Kind of miss that from the old Fallout games lol.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by cn3ps
- "That hag just killed your brothers" when talking to Mayrina after killing the hag


That's actually in the game, the catch: you need to tell Mayrina before the Hag teleport her in the cave.


Exactly, you "need" to tell Mayrina BEFORE, what's stopping you from telling after?

Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by cn3ps
- "You're doing the same thing as Wyll, you've got no right to talk Shadowheart" about Shadowheart talking about Wyll and his secrets


She's not keeping secrets, she reveals things on a need to know basis. wink


Whatever that is, it's still calling the kettle black but that's besides the point it's about not being able to tell the characters what you actually want to say


It really is like Skyrim dialogue.

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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
+1

Much of the dialogue is at best unconvincing


Reminds me a lot of Skyrim. In a game like this though where Role Playing is a big factor it's a problem imo, it's a good thing they're asking feedback.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
I'm currently playing "Game of the Year" Dragon Age: Inquisition and the dialogue even in early access BG3 is so much better than Bioware's that I'm at a loss of words. This goes for both the general level of the writing and the voice actor presentation. For your average NPC and companions. Still obviously there are some rough patches, but nothing major.

That said I wouldn't mind more "stupid" options/locked out of smart options for those who use intelligence as a dump stat. Kind of miss that from the old Fallout games lol.


The last Bioware game I played is Neverwinter Nights, I really love the dialogue in that game especially when you have 14+ Wisdom, I can say most things that I really want to say and you can show some annoying dumb people in the game's universe just how dumb they are. It's not perfect obviously but it's good enough to make you satisfied most of the time.

Last edited by cn3ps; 06/11/20 07:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael

That said I wouldn't mind more "stupid" options/locked out of smart options for those who use intelligence as a dump stat. Kind of miss that from the old Fallout games lol.


Except that's not how stats work in DnD. If you want to RP a dumb person, go ahead and pick the dumb answers, but 8 in intelligence isn't Dumb at all. A level 1 character is above the average person in skill levels already. So 8 in int, means you are sort of every day joe.

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Cinematic dialogues ALWAYS age badly. The meme educing cringyness has already started.
Too bad Larian is putting mostly all their blood and sweat on this instead of more interesting gameplay content and a Baldurs gate atmosphere.


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"Cinematic dialogues" are not going away no matter the amount of bitching, so it would probably be more productive to address the flaws of the system rather than asking for its removal.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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It's 2020, cinematic dialogue has been a standard in high-budget games for at least 10 years. And due to the fact that it requires recording a lot of dialogue, well, they can't just add a million new lines of dialogue

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Originally Posted by Tuco
"Cinematic dialogues" are not going away no matter the amount of bitching, so it would probably be more productive to address the flaws of the system rather than asking for its removal.

Absolutely agree.

Criticising without giving alternatives for improvement is just criticising for the sake of it and not exactly constructive. I am surprised at the number of people who for an Alpha or EA title feel that bitching on forums is in anyway a helpful practice?! Surely when a game maker says "hey, Early Access, let us know how we can improve?", the sane response is more of a "well cinematic dialogue is not my thing, but in any case Line blah bla blah should be XYZ instead of ABC".

For example, seeing as we are talking dialogue...

"We should get to know each other a little more." Feels like a catch it all option for "tell me your past for the sake of learning interesting stuff", rather than coming across it more organically. I like that the characters do fob you off, but I always found the instances where you catch them doing stuff, or learn as a result of something happening is more interesting than: "I must know all about you now".

Like when you come across the Shrine of Selune and Shadowheart starts spouting, ahhh, there's something to this and then you question it further and push for info. That's good. The issue is of course reciprocation, especially if you are a custom character. The "romantic" encounter with Shadowheart tried to give me an answer about where I was from and instigate information, but it's a one off and doesn't lead anywhere (AFAIK). Would be neat if later on her knowing I am from Baldur's Gate triggers comments from her when we reach the city.

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My 2 cents: dialogue is excellent and the options it provides are extensive I don't really think this is a weakness of BG3.

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My 2 cents too:

I love cinematic dialogues, I love dialogues in any form. It doesn't matter if it's done with a cinematic piece attached or just with a dialogue box.

What's important is coherence with the setting and evolution of story.

Lets make an example of things gone wrong on this aspect for Larian's Baldur's Gate 3 early access (sorry i tried, seriously by I can not use abbreviations laugh :P ):

1) Spoiler juts in the case of new players reading, Astarion
after I killed the monster hunter chasing after our lovely pale elf, who, interesting enough, WAS in the party and yet in the following dialogues was quite surprised knowing a monster hunter was after him.


2) Too few choices. This is an adpatation of RPG, but I feel like except fpr the two opposites lawful and the neutral there are not so many choices, I usually play chaotic neutral/good characters and somehow I feel like the only real choice ot to randomly select the answers in the various dialogues;

3) Dialogues with companions really have a weak impact in the overall balance of appreciation while actions on the contrary have a too heavy weight, the distorsion is so high that already in EA (that is supposed to be a tiny part of a very vast campaign) you can bring your companions to want you in their bed (Gale is the most embarrasing for how quickly he arrives to get wet at the sight of the main character).

Nevertheless I have to admit that to bring up so much flexibility could be a real challenge, there no games that really satisfied my taste (from vampires to Fallout through Khinght of the old republic, not to forget The outer worlds or all the Elder scrolls franchise or ), I hope in future with the advancement of artifical intelligence and deep learnig computer RPG's will be able to satisfyingly transport that dialogue meccaniques that make rpg's so fun.

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Originally Posted by Riandor

Criticising without giving alternatives for improvement is just criticising for the sake of it and not exactly constructive


That is just, like, your opinion man.

The utility of criticism is predicated entirely upon what is done with it not upon the manner in which it is delivered. Letting them know something does not work is valuable in and of itself, offering suggestions not necessarily so. These are not students in need of guidance and direction but rather professionals in their chosen career, They know what they are doing, though that does not mean everything will be done well. These writers are as aware as anyone else that effective dialogue has to feel genuine, because whatever work those lines are meant to do, whatever exposition or subtext is meant to be conveyed, it must also carry the perspective, the feelings, and the intentions of a convincing person. Without that human element it is all wasted because the truth is people are mostly interested in other people and art is rarely far removed from the human element. The reason why voice acting is employed is to aide in that pursuit. They already recognize how vital dialogue must be to a game conceived of narrative influences. While the voice you hear and the inflection it offers can breath further life into those words, that does not relieve from those words the burden of their responsibilities. Writers develop a sense for the written word just as musicians acquire an ear for music. Hemingway wrote incredible dialogue with voices so clear one knew who was speaking without reference or confirmation while eschewing anything which was not strictly necessary without losing any of the emotion or vitality behind what was said. Hunter S Thompson used poetry and metaphor circling concepts endlessly before arriving at what he wished to impart, making an adventure of every insight. Different styles, equally satisfying.

No, tell a writer how to write and they will not thank you. They need merely know that their work wants for improvement.


Last edited by DistantStranger; 06/11/20 08:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Riandor

Criticising without giving alternatives for improvement is just criticising for the sake of it and not exactly constructive


That is just, like, your opinion man.

The utility of criticism is predicated entirely upon what is done with it not upon the manner in which it is delivered. Letting them know something does not work is valuable in and of itself, offering suggestions not necessarily so. These are not students in need of guidance and direction but rather professionals in their chosen career, They know what they are doing, though that does not mean everything will be done well. These writers are as aware as anyone else that effective dialogue has to feel genuine, because whatever work those lines are meant to do, whatever exposition or subtext is meant to be conveyed, it must also carry the perspective, the feelings, and the intentions of a convincing person. Without that human element it is all wasted because the truth is people are mostly interested in other people and art is rarely far removed from the human element. The reason why voice acting is employed is to aide in that pursuit. They already recognize how vital dialogue must be to a game conceived of narrative influences. While the voice you hear and the inflection it offers can breath further life into those words, that does not relieve from those words the burden of their responsibilities. Writers develop a sense for the written word just as musicians acquire an ear for music. Hemingway wrote incredible dialogue with voices so clear one knew who was speaking without reference or confirmation while eschewing anything which was not strictly necessary without losing any of the emotion or vitality behind what was said. Hunter S Thompson used poetry and metaphor circling concepts endlessly before arriving at what he wished to impart, making an adventure of every insight. Different styles, equally satisfying.

No, tell a writer how to write and they will not thank you. They need merely know that their work wants for improvement.

+1

Pointing out flaws and mistakes is what feedback is about. It's the job of the developers to come up with fixes or improvements (or not).

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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Riandor

Criticising without giving alternatives for improvement is just criticising for the sake of it and not exactly constructive


That is just, like, your opinion man.

The utility of criticism is predicated entirely upon what is done with it not upon the manner in which it is delivered. Letting them know something does not work is valuable in and of itself, offering suggestions not necessarily so. These are not students in need of guidance and direction but rather professionals in their chosen career, They know what they are doing, though that does not mean everything will be done well. These writers are as aware as anyone else that effective dialogue has to feel genuine, because whatever work those lines are meant to do, whatever exposition or subtext is meant to be conveyed, it must also carry the perspective, the feelings, and the intentions of a convincing person. Without that human element it is all wasted because the truth is people are mostly interested in other people and art is rarely far removed from the human element. The reason why voice acting is employed is to aide in that pursuit. They already recognize how vital dialogue must be to a game conceived of narrative influences. While the voice you hear and the inflection it offers can breath further life into those words, that does not relieve from those words the burden of their responsibilities. Writers develop a sense for the written word just as musicians acquire an ear for music. Hemingway wrote incredible dialogue with voices so clear one knew who was speaking without reference or confirmation while eschewing anything which was not strictly necessary without losing any of the emotion or vitality behind what was said. Hunter S Thompson used poetry and metaphor circling concepts endlessly before arriving at what he wished to impart, making an adventure of every insight. Different styles, equally satisfying.

No, tell a writer how to write and they will not thank you. They need merely know that their work wants for improvement.



+1

This. I think you said it much better than me so I'll just quote you.

Last edited by cn3ps; 06/11/20 10:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by cn3ps
... all the NPCs love to insult you for daring to interact with them. It's like the game punishes you for being curious. I think they're forgetting that the player's enjoyment of the game should be paramount, not writing us to make us look dumb and their NPCs oh-so-sassy and witty. ...


This, in particular, resonates with me. Larian are so in love with their personal OCs that they've lost sight of the fact that the player is, against all seeming evidence, the main character.

They're so wrapped up in how epic and awesome and fantastic and witty and answer-for-everything their personal love-projects are, and how amazing they want to make them look, that they've created a situation where all of these super-special-awesome people have zero reason to be genuflecting to our level one random nobody... but they do. They follow us, and accede to our decisions on everything. Why? There's no justifying them doing so, because they do not feel, at all, like companions at this stage. We are not allowed, nine times out of ten, to ever get the last word on a conversation - Larian's babies have to always get the final snide/witty/prim/sarcastic/insulting/condescending/holier-than-thou comment in almost all of our interactions with them.

I've seen people comment that this feeling will improve when we're able to play origin characters ourselves - that's not the point. I didn't come to this game to play Larina's OC mary-sues for them... but that's what this feels like, so far.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by cn3ps
... all the NPCs love to insult you for daring to interact with them. It's like the game punishes you for being curious. I think they're forgetting that the player's enjoyment of the game should be paramount, not writing us to make us look dumb and their NPCs oh-so-sassy and witty. ...


This, in particular, resonates with me. Larian are so in love with their personal OCs that they've lost sight of the fact that the player is, against all seeming evidence, the main character.

They're so wrapped up in how epic and awesome and fantastic and witty and answer-for-everything their personal love-projects are, and how amazing they want to make them look, that they've created a situation where all of these super-special-awesome people have zero reason to be genuflecting to our level one random nobody... but they do. They follow us, and accede to our decisions on everything. Why? There's no justifying them doing so, because they do not feel, at all, like companions at this stage. We are not allowed, nine times out of ten, to ever get the last word on a conversation - Larian's babies have to always get the final snide/witty/prim/sarcastic/insulting/condescending/holier-than-thou comment in almost all of our interactions with them.

I've seen people comment that this feeling will improve when we're able to play origin characters ourselves - that's not the point. I didn't come to this game to play Larina's OC mary-sues for them... but that's what this feels like, so far.


Really? Some of your companions are snarky (Shadowheart, Astarion, Lae'zel) but they don't always get to have the last word if you choose your dialogues correctly. Also you are seeing the game in its initial stages, those characters have little to no reason to trust you and open up with you (besides all 3 are evil...) this early but it's pretty clear your relationship with them MAY change if you pursue that as an objective of yours.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
due to the fact that it requires recording a lot of dialogue, well, they can't just add a million new lines of dialogue


But I'm not asking for a million lines of dialogue just a few ones here and there.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121
cinematic dialogue has been a standard in high-budget games for at least 10 years.


I don't understand that part. Yes It's standard but that doesn't make the dialogue satisfying or enjoyable, isn't that the point of RPGs?
Does having a bunch of Delphines from Skyrim enjoyable? to each his own but I don't think so for a lot of people.

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