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Originally Posted by alt-thea
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit


That's my guess as well. The dialogue mentions the power of a chosen which would fit. As would an old avatar. If it were Jergal himself he would be disguising his form and faking his time in the tomb (Jergal looks like a praying mantis.)


again datamined scene synopsis

"After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."

"Jergal, a god of the dead, awaits the player in camp. He is bound by the judgment of another god - Helm - to assist the players as penance for past crimes. He provides resurrection services to the players."



%$%$^ evidence works against my theories again. smile Thanks. At some point we some language that explains his change of appearance


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Last edited by KillerRabbit; 06/11/20 06:44 PM. Reason: image not showing up
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Originally Posted by azarhal



That contradict ~30 years of Forgotten Realms lore. I would be rather surprised that WoTC would just allow the devs to change that. Even more curious, the place where we find him was a Selûne's chapel just a few months ago (in demonstration) and everything related to that is still in the game files.


I honestly don't know how accurate these descriptions are. Just that he is called Jergal in them and all his files say 'Jergal' also.
As for the tomb itself, there a dialog with Shadowheart:
PC: The air's stale. It's been centuries since any prayers disturbed it.
SH: Who were those prayers for? Normally the patron god is obvious - not here.

And there is Jergals statue, so at least this particular room hasn't been dedicated to Selune lately.

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Originally Posted by alt-thea
Originally Posted by azarhal



That contradict ~30 years of Forgotten Realms lore. I would be rather surprised that WoTC would just allow the devs to change that. Even more curious, the place where we find him was a Selûne's chapel just a few months ago (in demonstration) and everything related to that is still in the game files.


I honestly don't know how accurate these descriptions are. Just that he is called Jergal in them and all his files say 'Jergal' also.
As for the tomb itself, there a dialog with Shadowheart:
PC: The air's stale. It's been centuries since any prayers disturbed it.
SH: Who were those prayers for? Normally the patron god is obvious - not here.

And there is Jergals statue, so at least this particular room hasn't been dedicated to Selune lately.


I'm not saying they are inaccurate, I'm saying it's break the lore into pieces and that the place where we find him had a different story and they didn't bother scrubbing the game files of it.

You could clearly see the Selûne's symbol on banners back at E3, they changed them to banners that don't even have Jergal's symbol on them. The statues were probably changed too. They nixed some of Shadowheart's special dialogues that referenced Selûne but the game files that trigger them still exist.

It's just a strange change for the sake of making change. On top of that, his service breaks the game, as he should be able to cure you of the tadpole...

Last edited by azarhal; 06/11/20 07:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by azarhal
It's just a strange change for the sake of making change. On top of that, his service breaks the game, as he should be able to cure you of the tadpole...


Maybe his service is open for EA purpose only. 200 gold for people who run out of scrolls already or something. Less complaints in reviews how game is ooh so difficult (git gud?).

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire


Yeah but so far none of the True Souls have even known about their tadpoles, much less that they are altered by shadow magic.


Is there any information in the game that the 'true souls' tadpoles got tampered with shadow magic too? Because my impression was it's only those who were on that ship.

The Drow Halsin killed before he met us had q tadpole in stasis too, qll the true souls tadpoles are in stasis, its why they arnt mindflayers


I don't remember Halsin's note mention shadow magic. We know about it because of the hag and the Mindflayer in the Underdark can sense the magic too but doesn't know what it is. That Mindflayer also suggest the tadpole were evolved to stay in stasis (as a species). So the stasis and shadow magic might be unrelated.

Also, there were other survivors in the ship with tadpoles (not companions), they were brought away by a female Elf controlling them (you have to talk to the dead fishermen to find that out). Even in the ship, Us and the Mindflayer at the helm think you are connected to the network, like everyone else on the ship, but you aren't and both will attack you if they realize that. Just like the Absolute members will attack you if they learn you are a survivor from the ship regardless if you used the tadpole or not.
And once you meet Nere the True Soul, he can mind control you if you used the tadpole too much, just like the survivors from the ship taken away.


There is something different between the PC/Origin's tadpoles and the ones everyone else is using and the only special thing we know about our tadpole is that there is shadow magic involved.

Halsin's journal entry mentions the Drow's tadpole isnt a normal i belive it even says stasis, Netty flat out calls it status.

Last edited by N7Greenfire; 07/11/20 12:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by azarhal
[quote=alt-thea][quote=azarhal]

I'm not saying they are inaccurate, I'm saying it's break the lore into pieces and that the place where we find him had a different story and they didn't bother scrubbing the game files of it.

You could clearly see the Selûne's symbol on banners back at E3, they changed them to banners that don't even have Jergal's symbol on them. The statues were probably changed too. They nixed some of Shadowheart's special dialogues that referenced Selûne but the game files that trigger them still exist.

It's just a strange change for the sake of making change. On top of that, his service breaks the game, as he should be able to cure you of the tadpole...


Honestly, everything about 'there's a talkative skeleton in our camp and it wants to revive us repeatedly' sounds really weird...

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Originally Posted by alt-thea
Honestly, everything about 'there's a talkative skeleton in our camp and it wants to revive us repeatedly' sounds really weird...


Try attacking him...lol

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Drow Halsin killed before he met us had q tadpole in stasis too, qll the true souls tadpoles are in stasis, its why they arnt mindflayers

The tadpoles could be designed that way by the absolute, which would explain why the true souls aren't turning. I don't recall the hag explaining what the shadow magic did to the tadpole, just that it was tampered. Seems like misdirection.

Last edited by ash elemental; 06/11/20 09:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire


Yeah but so far none of the True Souls have even known about their tadpoles, much less that they are altered by shadow magic.


Is there any information in the game that the 'true souls' tadpoles got tampered with shadow magic too? Because my impression was it's only those who were on that ship.

The Drow Halsin killed before he met us had q tadpole in stasis too, qll the true souls tadpoles are in stasis, its why they arnt mindflayers

The tadpoles could be designed that way by the absolute, which would explain why the true souls aren't turning. I don't recall the hag explaining what the shadow magic did to the tadpole, just that it was tampered, hence my question.


Rather mindflayers themselves, it's their way of breeding and there was pod with girl which turned after pulling the lever. They are experimenting. They work for/with/being the Absolute.

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Ah yep, that makes sense. I completely forgot about the prologue. But it is interesting, because it implies that the transformation could be controlled. So maybe the absolute gathers the army and then turns everyone into a mind flayer at once. This would give them the advantage of being able to infiltrate Baldur's Gate for example, since they won't show any symptoms of turning beforehand, and the turning itself is instantaneous.

Last edited by ash elemental; 06/11/20 09:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by alt-thea
Originally Posted by azarhal



That contradict ~30 years of Forgotten Realms lore. I would be rather surprised that WoTC would just allow the devs to change that. Even more curious, the place where we find him was a Selûne's chapel just a few months ago (in demonstration) and everything related to that is still in the game files.


I honestly don't know how accurate these descriptions are. Just that he is called Jergal in them and all his files say 'Jergal' also.
As for the tomb itself, there a dialog with Shadowheart:
PC: The air's stale. It's been centuries since any prayers disturbed it.
SH: Who were those prayers for? Normally the patron god is obvious - not here.

And there is Jergals statue, so at least this particular room hasn't been dedicated to Selune lately.


I'm not saying they are inaccurate, I'm saying it's break the lore into pieces and that the place where we find him had a different story and they didn't bother scrubbing the game files of it.

You could clearly see the Selûne's symbol on banners back at E3, they changed them to banners that don't even have Jergal's symbol on them. The statues were probably changed too. They nixed some of Shadowheart's special dialogues that referenced Selûne but the game files that trigger them still exist.

It's just a strange change for the sake of making change. On top of that, his service breaks the game, as he should be able to cure you of the tadpole...


I don't see a problem.
You assume he'd like to heal our team. If he did, then everyone would go their own way and no one would investigate the plans for the absolute.
In the first presentation, Jergal's statue was a placeholder, it was a model from DoS2.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 06/11/20 10:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by alt-thea
Originally Posted by azarhal



That contradict ~30 years of Forgotten Realms lore. I would be rather surprised that WoTC would just allow the devs to change that. Even more curious, the place where we find him was a Selûne's chapel just a few months ago (in demonstration) and everything related to that is still in the game files.


I honestly don't know how accurate these descriptions are. Just that he is called Jergal in them and all his files say 'Jergal' also.
As for the tomb itself, there a dialog with Shadowheart:
PC: The air's stale. It's been centuries since any prayers disturbed it.
SH: Who were those prayers for? Normally the patron god is obvious - not here.

And there is Jergals statue, so at least this particular room hasn't been dedicated to Selune lately.


I'm not saying they are inaccurate, I'm saying it's break the lore into pieces and that the place where we find him had a different story and they didn't bother scrubbing the game files of it.

You could clearly see the Selûne's symbol on banners back at E3, they changed them to banners that don't even have Jergal's symbol on them. The statues were probably changed too. They nixed some of Shadowheart's special dialogues that referenced Selûne but the game files that trigger them still exist.

It's just a strange change for the sake of making change. On top of that, his service breaks the game, as he should be able to cure you of the tadpole...


I don't see a problem.
You assume he'd like to heal our team. If he did, then everyone would go their own way and no one would investigate the plans for the absolute.
In the first presentation, Jergal's statue was a placeholder, it was a model from DoS2.


I'm not talking about healing, his resurrections isn't revivify (which require the original body), it's true resurrections. It recreate a whole new body, tadpole free.

Gale's true resurrections scroll should also cure him of the tadpole.

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There was a guy in the intro movie who turned instantaneously too.

Some people commented thats weird but assumed it was done for cinematic purposes. Guess not.

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Originally Posted by Surface R
There was a guy in the intro movie who turned instantaneously too.

Some people commented thats weird but assumed it was done for cinematic purposes. Guess not.


Are you sure he "turned instantaneously"? We don't know when he became infected. Perhaps they were all activated at the same time (ceremorphosis triggered as the tadpole was no longer kept in stasis), hence why all the mind flayers rise up at the same time.

Last edited by Priest; 06/11/20 11:22 PM. Reason: typo

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Originally Posted by azarhal

I'm not talking about healing, his resurrections isn't revivify (which require the original body), it's true resurrections. It recreate a whole new body, tadpole free.

Gale's true resurrections scroll should also cure him of the tadpole.


It should cure him of the tadpole, yes. However, I have a feeling that the writers will say "The tadpole cannot be removed in such a way, it's a special case. The power behind what is keeping the tadpole there is unique".

They may also say that it isn't a wound, poison, disease, or curse, but rather a parasite or "part of you": if you're brought back, you're brought back with the tadpole.


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Originally Posted by Priest
Originally Posted by azarhal

I'm not talking about healing, his resurrections isn't revivify (which require the original body), it's true resurrections. It recreate a whole new body, tadpole free.

Gale's true resurrections scroll should also cure him of the tadpole.


It should cure him of the tadpole, yes. However, I have a feeling that the writers will say "The tadpole cannot be removed in such a way, it's a special case. The power behind what is keeping the tadpole there is unique".

They may also say that it isn't a wound, poison, disease, or curse, but rather a parasite or "part of you": if you're brought back, you're brought back with the tadpole.


True resurrections just take your soul to bring your back and you need to be willing on top of it. If the tadpole is now your soul than we are already mindflayers at the start of the game.

And that's not the intent, because there are dialogues about the tadpole feeding on something inside of you that isn't physical, aka your soul.


Last edited by azarhal; 06/11/20 11:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Drow Halsin killed before he met us had q tadpole in stasis too, qll the true souls tadpoles are in stasis, its why they arnt mindflayers

The tadpoles could be designed that way by the absolute, which would explain why the true souls aren't turning. I don't recall the hag explaining what the shadow magic did to the tadpole, just that it was tampered. Seems like misdirection.

The "scholar" with the mushroom people lets us know the stasis its the only thing stopping the tadpoles from chowing down, he might have mentioned shadowmagic too

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Originally Posted by Priest
Originally Posted by Surface R
There was a guy in the intro movie who turned instantaneously too.

Some people commented thats weird but assumed it was done for cinematic purposes. Guess not.


Are you sure he "turned instantaneously"? We don't know when he became infected. Perhaps they were all activated at the same time (ceremorphosis triggered as the tadpole was no longer kept in stasis), hence why all the mind flayers rise up at the same time.


What a silly question.

The cinematic clearly shows just that and since we have seen precisely that ability on the nautiloid there is no sense to hallucinate you didnt see what you did see.
Unless you just got stuck on that early "idea" and prefer to hallucinate and imagine things that arent there.

It fits very well with the idea of a plot for a sudden occupation, with improved True Soul fighters and with grunts turning into grunts immediately when the time comes.

Last edited by Surface R; 07/11/20 01:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by Priest
Originally Posted by Surface R
There was a guy in the intro movie who turned instantaneously too.

Some people commented thats weird but assumed it was done for cinematic purposes. Guess not.


Are you sure he "turned instantaneously"? We don't know when he became infected. Perhaps they were all activated at the same time (ceremorphosis triggered as the tadpole was no longer kept in stasis), hence why all the mind flayers rise up at the same time.


What a silly question.

The cinematic clearly shows just that and since we have seen precisely that ability on the nautiloid there is no sense to hallucinate you didnt see what you did see.
Unless you just got stuck on that early "idea" and prefer to hallucinate and imagine things that arent there.

It fits very well with the idea of a plot for a sudden occupation, with improved True Soul fighters and with grunts turning into grunts immediately when the time comes.


I think I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought that you meant he turned soon after he was infected, instead of an instant transformation.


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Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by Priest
Originally Posted by Surface R
There was a guy in the intro movie who turned instantaneously too.

Some people commented thats weird but assumed it was done for cinematic purposes. Guess not.


Are you sure he "turned instantaneously"? We don't know when he became infected. Perhaps they were all activated at the same time (ceremorphosis triggered as the tadpole was no longer kept in stasis), hence why all the mind flayers rise up at the same time.


What a silly question.

The cinematic clearly shows just that and since we have seen precisely that ability on the nautiloid there is no sense to hallucinate you didnt see what you did see.
Unless you just got stuck on that early "idea" and prefer to hallucinate and imagine things that arent there.

It fits very well with the idea of a plot for a sudden occupation, with improved True Soul fighters and with grunts turning into grunts immediately when the time comes.

Yeah guys i wouldent put too much stock in the cinematic Remember Da:O's with the glowing eye and Tat Warden? Those are largely for hype.

Besides we know the tadpoles we carry are much stronger that a regular mindflayers

Maybe the Nautiloid carried two varieties of Tadpole though, one for True Souls qnd the regular kind to make more mindflayers.

Last edited by N7Greenfire; 07/11/20 02:08 AM.
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