Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2020
M
Modder Offline OP
stranger
OP Offline
stranger
M
Joined: Nov 2020
I have tried multiple builds for different heroes and combinations of companions. It seems that when it comes to combat, wizards and warlocks are much weaker than rogue, ranger and fighter as long as those all are focused on weapons and armor rather than magic build.

Wizards and warlocks dont seem to replace their lower AC with increased damage. They do have good spells but limited amount of them and low hit % makes them, at best, equal in damage compared to ranger, rogue and fighter..until they run out of spell slots... yet they have less AC and nothing to balance it out.

Most powerful team i have managed to make is where i give shields + heavy armor to ranger fighter and cleric and medium armor and dualwield to astarion. They have 17-20 AC and still do a lot of damage except cleric ofc but cleric can boos their AC and damage even further.

When i have this team and then change 1-2 of them to Wyll and Gale, team becomes much much worse in combat and you can easily see that there is small issue in balance there ?



For example think like this: 4 fighter or 4 rogues or 4 rangers are just fine team, you could maybe even say overpowered teams... but 4 warlocks or 4 wizards are super weak team.

Last edited by Modder; 07/11/20 06:34 PM.
Joined: Jun 2014
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2014
r/woosh

In D&D, mages always start disadvantaged in early levels but become very very powerful in the mid and late game.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Those classes need a bit more management when it comes to positioning. They need to be in higher terrain, far from melee enemies and have mobility spells available like misty step to be able to escape to places where the enemy has disadvantage against them. You can also use spells to increase their AC, or bless them, or you can make a wizard that is a Gith and get armor and weapon proficiencies.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
On the contrary I think it is the melee classes that are a bit nerfed, and need a boost particularly to mobility, since they cannot get adv from higher terrain and a lot of enemies negate their opportunity attacks with ease, or can jump to disengage.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
You can solo the game with one mage, let alone 4 of them. ^^

"do a lot of damage except cleric ofc but cleric can boos their AC and damage even further."
Cleric with inflict wounds is kinda insane, it's up to 40 dmg on 1 spell.

For mages -> mage armour( lasts whole day) + mirror image per combat. Problem solved.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
Joined: Mar 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2020
This is a case where everyone is right. Yes, starting weak and becoming very powerful has been part of the D&D formula forever. But the HP bloat does nerf the wizard and the caster cleric.

Take the sleep spell for example. Sleep is a 5d8 spell. If joe goblin had 7 hp, three after poisoning the wine, then a sleep spell would take out 4-5 poisoned goblins or 3 full strength ones. Or many more on a lucky roll. But since goblins have 16 - 27 hp it is much less effective.

HP bloat / AC reduction has to change.

Joined: Sep 2015
N
old hand
Offline
old hand
N
Joined: Sep 2015
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
r/woosh

In D&D, mages always start disadvantaged in early levels but become very very powerful in the mid and late game.


In D&D probably, in BG3 they are the most powerful from level 1. Testing a solo wizard at the moment, and it's just horrendous how easy every fight is. The infinite long rests and their versatility is no match for every encounter in the game.

Something has to be done here because when the game releases, if it stands as it is, unless for romance purposes, I don't see why a wizard will need companions.

Last edited by Nyanko; 07/11/20 07:03 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
r/woosh

In D&D, mages always start disadvantaged in early levels but become very very powerful in the mid and late game.


In D&D probably, in BG3 they are the most powerful from level 1. Testing a solo wizard at the moment, and it's just horrendous how easy every fight is. The infinite long rests and their versatility is no match for every encounter in the game.

Something has to be done here because when the game releases, if it stands as it is, unless for romance purposes, I don't see why a wizard will need companions.


I just finished a solo run with an Eld Knight without cheesing barrelmancy. I could only imagine it being easier on a wizard though. Might give it a try.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Not understanding mechanics and the importance of positioning isn't a failure on the part of the game.
Wizards are almost a little too strong this early in the game, and I have zero issues with landing my spells because I understand that height, distance, and lighting play a critical role in spellcasting success.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by virion
For mages -> mage armour( lasts whole day) + mirror image per combat. Problem solved.

This. Warlocks and trickery clerics can cast Mirror Image too and helps LOTS w/ survivability.

Joined: Oct 2020
N
member
Offline
member
N
Joined: Oct 2020
Its mainly Gale that sucks, no built in darkvision and low Con means he never hits anything a lot of the time.

Try a drow Wizard, their crazy good dark vision makes wizards much more reliable

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Gale did feel a bit weak at levels 1-2, but his ice cantrip was still immensely useful and his fog and sleep spells were incredibly valuable in turning the tides of early fights even if he spent much of the time downed.

But at levels 3 and 4? He was an absolute monster doing massive AoE damage with Burning Hands, blasting whole groups off ledges with Thunder Wave, and just all around controlling the battlefield with Grease and Fog.

Once the wizard has a few spell slots to burn they really explode in raw power. Especially because there's currently no reason not to just long rest before every fight. And even if you don't exploit long rests between cantrips and their ample spell slots my wizards usually have more stamina than my other casters just because they can afford to drop a couple Burning Hands and still be fine for another battle or two.

Joined: Jun 2014
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2014
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Not understanding mechanics and the importance of positioning isn't a failure on the part of the game.
Wizards are almost a little too strong this early in the game, and I have zero issues with landing my spells because I understand that height, distance, and lighting play a critical role in spellcasting success.


Lighting? How?

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Not understanding mechanics and the importance of positioning isn't a failure on the part of the game.
Wizards are almost a little too strong this early in the game, and I have zero issues with landing my spells because I understand that height, distance, and lighting play a critical role in spellcasting success.


Lighting? How?


Lighting or rather visibility affect spells that target AC, that's what he meant I assume. On a target that is obscured by shadows, for example, you get disadvantage.

Last edited by Kendaric; 08/11/20 12:38 PM.
Joined: Jul 2014
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
I think the whole comparison is a tad unfair. We're getting what, level 4 now?

Wait until level 5 when Wizards and the likes get Fireball and can take out a good chunk of trash in one single action. And it only grows from there.

Spellcasters benefit the most from more levels. Martial classes start good and scale decently, but they can't alpha strike half a bloody screen down the road or have summons and utility to pad out your group.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Gale did feel a bit weak at levels 1-2, but his ice cantrip was still immensely useful and his fog and sleep spells were incredibly valuable in turning the tides of early fights even if he spent much of the time downed.

But at levels 3 and 4? He was an absolute monster doing massive AoE damage with Burning Hands, blasting whole groups off ledges with Thunder Wave, and just all around controlling the battlefield with Grease and Fog.

Once the wizard has a few spell slots to burn they really explode in raw power. Especially because there's currently no reason not to just long rest before every fight. And even if you don't exploit long rests between cantrips and their ample spell slots my wizards usually have more stamina than my other casters just because they can afford to drop a couple Burning Hands and still be fine for another battle or two.


This. Exactly except I would change the underlined comment to *after*.

Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
Here are the problems with caster survivability from what I see:

  • The combat arenas are designed for close-range combat so mages have to be close range to engage.
  • Rules Change: Maximum Range of long-range spells and arrows is 60 feet (18m), down from 120 feet. A typical character can move and dash 60 feet to get right next to your caster, in AoO range. That's no good.
  • The AI still has the D:OS tendency of preferring to target weaker/low AC characters, even if there are larger apparent threats closer by.
  • Too much AoE damage from thrown object spam, and surface damage.


Originally Posted by Gaidax
Wait until level 5 when Wizards and the likes get Fireball and can take out a good chunk of trash in one single action. And it only grows from there.


What trash? Spell damage has largely remained the same, but enemy HP has increased.

Joined: Jul 2014
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
Originally Posted by Stabbey
What trash? Spell damage has largely remained the same, but enemy HP has increased.


So far from what I have seen a specific type of enemy HP was increased. Other than that - you can be sure Fireball will leave a big burning surface on top of its damage anyway to counter whatever extra HP there might be.

Joined: Oct 2020
A
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
A
Joined: Oct 2020
Then you are building your character wrong. Wizards and Warlocks can get quite decent AC.

Firstly: Dexterity isn't a dump stat for any class other than heavy armor wearers. Always tro to aim for at least 14 in dexterity.
Secondly: Constitution is a main stat for any caster, because it affects your concentration checks. Wizards have low HP to start with, so having 14 or even 16 in constitution is very smart.

Wizards has access to mage armor, ALWAYS use it. With 14 in Dex you'll have and AC of 15, which isn't bad.
Warlocks has medium armor, so you should be starting with and AC of 14 if you tool 14 Dex. From here you can actually make a choice, go for 16 Dex at character creation, to start with AC 15, or you can pick up medium armor proficiency at level 4. (If we get variant human you can do this at level 1)

Or you can be a class that starts with medium armor, like Gith

There are also a plethora of other defensive spells, like mirror image and blurr that can help you out. If Larian get's a good working reaction system then Shield is another very good defensive spell.


As for most low AC characters: Keep them back, and hope they don't get shot.
There's an issue with BG3 at the moment though, it seems the game is programmed to target low AC characters or something, which means your caster will get hit more.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Warlocks start with light armour proficiency, if you don't want to wear it you can take the invocation Armour of Shadows at level 2 which gives free casting of Mage Armour so you don't waste a spell slot. Scrolls for this are fairly common as well, use these on a wizard to not waste spell slots. Cantrips are really overpowered compared to 5e and you never run out of these. Use Ray of Frost on an enemy standing in blood so they can't get to you as fast. Tactical positioning as well can keep you safe, also everyone can use the Hide bonus action when out of sight range. It is the common behaviour to take out the casters/healers first so it is good that the enemy also recognizes this.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5