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Originally Posted by Tarorn
Loved sword coast legends - it still had d&d all over it - some D&D people need to learn to relax a bit - table top vs pc games is quite different.
And yes I played d&d for many years - it’s more than a set of rules ...

Interesting. We have fundamentally disagreed on everything else but on this we are in agreement. I liked SCL and enjoyed playing it. I found the free DLC for it to have been especially well-made. I still even replay it. But I speak only for its SP side; don't know or care about co-op play.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Any product should be rated and reviewed according to his proposal. You don't see food critics complaining about gourmet food cuz "it is too expensive and fancy", when is the point of the gourmet food.


Just as an aside, food critics do complain about food being too expensive or too fancy, and as trends change so do their expectations; what was once standard could be judged by critics today as pretentious; molecular gastronomy, as a result, tends to unsettle certain critics. Also, it isn't unheard of for food critics to complain something being too ordinary even if it is done well - the word 'uninspired' comes to mind.

You should actually go and sample a bunch of three star, two star, and one star restaurants and then go for those allegedly gourmet places and you'll see why a ton of them never will earn a single star no matter how hard they try.

Point being that industries do change as do expectations. Welcome to 2020 btw.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
I don't even know why they are reviewing the early access when they usually only review fully released games.


Because its currently being sold full retail, so people want to know if its worth buying right now in its current state. That is what is being reviewed.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Well, 22k reviews on steam and 'Very Positive'. This is the only kind of reviews I trust.


My two dimes:

That is the only kind of review that doesn't matter because is based not on a critic and rational analysis of the game but by personal feelings (by the way I love the game just to be clear on my position), IGN and so on are professional reviewers who read the game from a more dettached point of view.

(And to me the fact that something is love by an awful lot of people doesn't imply that said something is good, it made things just widespread).

Also I can understand the low rate gave by those sites, the mix of awful movement, combat system that dilatate the lenght of battles, dialogues than are in the average of computer based rpg, the distance between expectation from a sequel of an iconic game and the outcome, the cinematic serious bugs (aahhh lost count of how many times I talked to walls, back of necks, shoulders and so on laugh laugh ), the really thin personalization of characters specially in skills and stats, how penalized is the rogue class whose class skills (pickpocket, lockpicking, stealth) are pratically open to all the other classes, is something than can not be ignored so easily specially if it comes from a firm that has made its name with the two underdogs Original Sin.

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Originally Posted by Tarorn
Loved sword coast legends - it still had d&d all over it - some D&D people need to learn to relax a bit - table top vs pc games is quite different.
And yes I played d&d for many years - it’s more than a set of rules ...


I strongly disagree.

We already have 68165348646516546846846818964 pseudo RPG's all about gear farming and cooldown managing and we don't need another one. Nor when you LIE to the fanbase promising D&D and delivering wow magical system instead of vancian, zero skill checks, lv 6 liches and so on.

Originally Posted by Limz

Point being that industries do change as do expectations. Welcome to 2020 btw.




Except that food critiques tries to please his readers. Game journos doesn't care about how the target audience sees the product.


Originally Posted by Bufotenina
hat is the only kind of review that doesn't matter because is based not on a critic and rational analysis of the game but by personal feelings (by the way I love the game just to be clear on my position), IGN and so on are professional reviewers who read the game from a more dettached point of view.


Yep. "professional reviewers"

Originally Posted by "S0rcererV1ct0r on RPG codex"


The iconic "I can't hit an swarm with an axe, 0/10"

Originally Posted by "Gamespot Pathfinder Kingmaker Review"
many monsters and creatures require very specific tools to kill. Swarms of small creatures like rats, for instance, can't be effectively fought with a sword and shield.
https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/pathfinder-kingmaker-review-the-classics/1900-6417006/


Path of Exile - IGN review



Nintendo World Report TV Review of Baldur's Gate



Game Journalist VS 5 yo child on cuphead tutorial




Fans who actually played the game >>>>> people who can't beat cuphead tutorial.

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Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Also I can understand the low rate gave by those sites, the mix of awful movement, combat system that dilatate the lenght of battles, dialogues than are in the average of computer based rpg, the distance between expectation from a sequel of an iconic game and the outcome, the cinematic serious bugs (aahhh lost count of how many times I talked to walls, back of necks, shoulders and so on laugh laugh ), the really thin personalization of characters specially in skills and stats, how penalized is the rogue class whose class skills (pickpocket, lockpicking, stealth) are pratically open to all the other classes, is something than can not be ignored so easily specially if it comes from a firm that has made its name with the two underdogs Original Sin.


Well put.

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I strongly disagree.

We already have 68165348646516546846846818964 pseudo RPG's all about gear farming and cooldown managing and we don't need another one. Nor when you LIE to the fanbase promising D&D and delivering wow magical system instead of vancian, zero skill checks, lv 6 liches and so on.

I don’t disagree with your points - but even so I thoroughly enjoyed the game - to me it was engaging, I played it from start to finish & have 150+ hours in it. Writing was great & to me it had a huge D&D feel to it which is what I look for most in aD&D title.

Probably why I’m enjoying BG3 so much. I want as many of the rules to be implemented as makes sense but if they are not all there or perfect but the game is enjoyable - that’s my preference.

Ps - the cool down system could have been ok without all the items giving bonuses to it & the ability to purchase highly powerful magic items from vendors - I do dislike that, totally agree about the lich too.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Except that food critiques tries to please his readers. Game journos doesn't care about how the target audience sees the product.



Food critics don't try to please their readers and if they do its an byproduct of what their main goal is which is informing people of the experience they may or may not have. Game journalists do the same thing.

Stick to what you know and don't use analogies you hardly understand. Go visit some Michelin star restaurants some time and do a compare and contrast, you'll realize very quickly how stupid it would be to 'please the readers'.

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Fans who actually played the game >>>>> people who can't beat cuphead tutorial.


You know what's stupid about what you've written? You list the IGN review of Path of Exile but you don't highlight the fact that less than 1% of the player base even makes it to the end game and the IGN review highlights a HUGE problem with the game the game's learning curve (actually I don't think most people even get to Act 3) which is a massive waste of resources on the dev's part. It also means that the game is pretty much unapproachable by the majority of gamers out there, so yeah the IGN review is legitimate. IGN's target audience is greater than just hardcore ARPG fans you know that right? Same goes for the Michelin guide, hence why you see them rate various restaurants from simple sushi shacks, to fast food, to so called high end restaurants.


And if you're a fan of a game and you're giving a review then it's going to be discarded because you aren't exactly thinking critically of it now are you? Anyone who is writing a review that's trying to be unbiased will literally have to put a disclaimer that the game is for people who enjoy specific challenges and if you had to give it a rating for the general population it's going to be a LOT lower than the rating you would give for fans of that genre and then a rating for that subgenre. But most places don't and force you on a simple scale, so you have to drag the overall score down by quite a lot if the game is more niche.


Not really a hard concept to understand.

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Considering if you give too many games bad reviews, you stop getting review copies, reviews tend to be inflated.

I've read both of these and they don't seem to know what early access is. They seem to expect it to be as polished as a full release. And they seem like snowflakes that can't understand why an NPC that's supposed to be working with them, doesn't have to like them.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
I don't even know why they are reviewing the early access when they usually only review fully released games.


I needn't read any further. This is exactly my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
I don't even know why they are reviewing the early access when they usually only review fully released games.


Maybe because they are making money on it and this is big EA premiere, which will last at least a year and a half till devs finish it.

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Originally Posted by Tarorn
the cool down system could have been ok without all the items giving bonuses to it & the ability to purchase highly powerful magic items from vendors - I do dislike that, totally agree about the lich too.


Cooldowns are just the worst plague on gaming. IDK why people accept this BS on RPG's. The new countra had it and everyone HATED.

Originally Posted by Limz
You know what's stupid about what you've written? You list the IGN review of Path of Exile but you don't highlight the fact that less than 1% of the player base even makes it to the end game and the IGN review highlights a HUGE problem with the game the game's learning curve(...)


Check the like to dislike ratio of the IGN video. 2k upvotes and 10k downvotes. Meanwhile, on steam, PoE appears frequently on the most played games and over 90% of the users recommend. Diablo 3 in other hands, they praised everything while the fanbase criticized the nonsensical wow artstyle and nonsensical game mechanics like monks needing an big and sharp axe to have powerful unarmed attacks that disappear by no reason on combat animations. For game journos, an class all about unarmed combat needing an axe that disappear when in combat is not a problem, but god forbid in a RPG, your fast swinging blade actually can't damage insect swarms and you need to use aoe spells, torches or magical/elemental weapons.

What is the problem of end game being hard to get? You as a casual player CAN GET a hell lot of fun and enjoy a lot of good content for free, the journalist even criticized that the game is too long. What is the problem? The journey on this types of games tends to be better than the end game.


---------


And you keep saying that "hardcore game", "niche game", to refer to the most popular TT game ever and the most played isometric ARPG on steam. What is an on niche/non hardcore for you??? An game which the game journalists that can't pass the Cuphead tutorial can enjoy? Any game which requires 2 digit IQ is too hardcore and niche for you???

I while a child who could't even read English had no problem playing 90s RPG's like Might & Magic VII, my very first RPG. Nowdays, if a game like it was released, the brain of game journos would melt.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Check the like to dislike ratio of the IGN video. 2k upvotes and 10k downvotes. Meanwhile, on steam, PoE appears frequently on the most played games and over 90% of the users recommend...


Yes, you have the entire hardcore fanbase downvoting it and you're completely ignoring the stats provided by GGG when they state that barely anyone makes it beyond Kitava or even reaches maps. Most game journalists have to cover a game for the general population not for a niche crowd. Thanks for missing the point.

And you know that PoE only appears near the top when a new season releases and then drops after two weeks. Among Us has already beaten its highest concurrent user count. So, how would you reconcile that on a single scale rating? Give 10s for both? Then you dilute the value of your rating system. Give Among Us 0 because you only review RPGs?


Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

What is the problem of end game being hard to get? You as a casual player CAN GET a hell lot of fun and enjoy a lot of good content for free, the journalist even criticized that the game is too long. What is the problem? The journey on this types of games tends to be better than the end game.


Depending on your goals having an end game being hard to get to (or impossible for a lot of the populace) reduces the efficiency of development and scales poorly economically and in dev time.

And honestly PoE does take too long. The entire campaign is a waste of time and the entire end game is more or less a grind just to see if your build works which is what the IGN reviewer hinted at. I happen to enjoy that, but do you think casual players sit around with Path of Building open for hours on end trying to theorycraft out or fix their builds? Even veterans of the game will not argue and say that the game play is fun because everyone zips around and clears out a map in one minute.



Do you even know what playing casually means? It means maybe an hour or two per day if you're lucky. Do you also know how punishing the game is to a casual? How many 'casuals' actually have fun dying to Merveil in PoE dozens of times in a row? Not many. Here's something to consider: PoE will never be as popular with the general audience as games like Among Us, League etc.


Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

And you keep saying that "hardcore game", "niche game", to refer to the most popular TT game ever and the most played isometric ARPG on steam. What is an on niche/non hardcore for you??? An game which the game journalists that can't pass the Cuphead tutorial can enjoy? Any game which requires 2 digit IQ is too hardcore and niche for you???

I while a child who could't even read English had no problem playing 90s RPG's like Might & Magic VII, my very first RPG. Nowdays, if a game like it was released, the brain of game journos would melt.


Yes D&D is still a niche game but it's growing and maybe one day it won't be. How many people play D&D? 20 mil? How many play League of Legends - 115mil? How many people play soccer/futbol? How many people play Chess (605mil) or Go? Or play Counter Strike?

It's stupid to think that because D&D is the most popular table top RPG that it somehow means that it isn't niche when the whole perspective of what is and what isn't is usually measured against the most common. Also, lol @ you trying to include PoE in here when it doesn't even come close to the others. Just look at https://steamcharts.com/ right now and show me where PoE is. Oh yeah there's also Fortnite which is 350 million.

Also, it's equally stupid to lump all game journalists together.

I derped through Dark Sun and Eye of the Beholder when I was a child but there's a thread that you can't grasp which is pretty apparent: you have no idea what a casual player is and you're severely overestimating what the average person can do without hours of video game experience to aid them.

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Originally Posted by Limz

GGG when they state that barely anyone makes it beyond Kitava or even reaches maps.


What is the problem???

Everyone seems to having fun. That is the point of any hobby. Fun and engagement. Not complete most content in less time.

Originally Posted by Limz

downvoting it


MrLlamaSC criticized a lot of things on PoE and ... Din't received the hate. Maybe cuz he is part of the audience judging the game according to his proposal.


Originally Posted by Limz

cover a game for the general population not for a niche crowd.


Again, what is a niche for you???

ArmA 3 has way more active users on steam than all CoDs combined.

Even if this RPG's are ""niche"" games, WHY THEY SHOULD'T BE RATED according to his proposal? WHY EVERY SINGLE GAME NEEDS TO APPEAL TO BRAINLETS? You don't see food critiques complaining "no meat" in a vegan restaurant cuz is a retarded complain. Nor pick the most dangerous track on ski on Bariloche and give 0/10 cuz "it is too hard for those who don't wanna invest a lot of time and money into skiing". It is a nonsensical complain.

Just like "i can't hit an insect swarm with an axe" is a retarded complain. Can be a valid reason to the guy who just wanna a mindless fun, not play, but this RPG's elements is why people from the target audience of the game loves it. Why food, sports, etc; are reviewed according to the proposal and games, are reviewed according to the demands of brainlets, even when the point of the game is to please people who like old school style and nobody is supplying that demand??

The game journalists threats games like Grimoire as a sin only cuz they don't like. The Dark Sun reviweres 90s reviewers that I've posted, rated the game and criticized as the average SSI fan will see it.


Originally Posted by Limz

PoE only appears near the top when a new season releases and then drops after two weeks


Still far above most AAA "press A for awesome" games. Inlcuding Bugsoft games.

Originally Posted by Limz

Then you dilute the value of your rating system. Give Among Us 0 because you only review RPGs?


Nope. I should try to see what the target audience of among us likes, what dislikes, play and put myself under the skin of then and then, try to see what the target audience of the game will probably like and probably dislike.

Originally Posted by Limz

The entire campaign is a waste of time and the entire end game is more or less a grind just to see if your build works which is what the IGN reviewer hinted at.


He was using the basic attack on late stages. This game is not for him.


Originally Posted by Limz

? It means maybe an hour or two per day if you're lucky.


Then, according to your definition, when I was employed and studding, I was a casual cuz even on weekends, I could't play much. On a period of six months, I had gym, college and a job. Din't had even 1 hour to play per day. Took about 6 months to finish my might & magic run but I enjoyed each second of it.


Originally Posted by Limz

casual player is and you're severely overestimating what the average person can do without hours of video game experience to aid them.


Nope. Completely wrong.

You not only subestime the average player, but also subestime the average RPG player and believe that all RPG's should appeal to the lowest common denominator brainlet. That logic applied to any other hobby would mean that every complex track on skiing should receive poor ratting, that every firing range should only have close quarters stationary targets, every marathon should be based on the shortest and easiest marathon and so on.

Ahhh and climbing too. Lets rate 0/10 the Mt Everest cuz he is too hard and dangerous to climb. We don't need to write a climbing review to the average climbing enthusiast who likes climbing. We need to appeal to the lowest common denominator. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
The "bad points" of the Gamespot "review"

"Plenty of glitches and bugs remain, including numerous crashes to desktop

Conversations and cinematic scenes are particularly rough and impede both the enjoyment and legibility of the story

There's a strange snarkiness to much of the writing that leaves few likeable characters

The difficulty in general is uneven, forcing an over-reliance on quicksaving and quickloading"

2 points about technical issues, which are EXPECTED in EA, one personal dislike about the writing style, which I instead like as it reminds me of the Belgariad/Mallorean, and of course the last, most ridiculous one "IT IS DUR DIFFICULT TEH HORROR".

Is this an example of a review to trust?


I still can't believe gamespot published a review like that.

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IGN and gamespot reviews are not to be trusted. If they're not overlooking a games flaws and kissing it's ass, they're fixating on the negatives without covering the positives. There's a reason many people don't take IGN seriously. Even their video reviews sound scripted and forced. Like their heart isn't in the game. Even if they're giving a positive review (which they often do regardless).

Steam sales figures give a better idea because it's the PEOPLE that decide. Not the media. And THEY are the one playing. Most of them at least. The issue there is people can jump on bandwagons and be more "casual". Acting like an ok game is "the best thing ever". When they likely never even touched BG2.

Personally I want what we've had in pat D&D games. The ability to talk with demons and dragons and other races. Having good conversations with them. To not be forced into fights because dice rolls screw you over (except maybe NOW AND THEN. But not CONSTANTLY over and over). etc, etc. It's not too much to ask for. Let us turn into dragons when we have high stats like n past D&D games with summoning demons through gates with protect from evil spells and we'll good. Just make damn sure you have the D&D. Demons and dragons. To debate with and relate with. Always have demons and dragons. We've always had that, even in Neverwinter Nights 1 (which has a VERY good example of a friendly dragon). So it better be here too.

Last edited by Taramafor; 08/11/20 11:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by Taramafor
Steam sales figures give a better idea because it's the PEOPLE that decide. Not the media. And THEY are the one playing. Most of them at least. The issue there is people can jump on bandwagons and be more "casual". Acting like an ok game is "the best thing ever". When they likely never even touched BG2.

Pro reviews are trash, but so are "ordinary people" mass reviews like on Steam. If every single person playing the game put in a review, then the reviews collectively would have value. If not, then if we at least got a truly representative sample of the people playing the game, that also would be fine. But what we have with mass reviews is a biased sample. And any information you get from a biased sample is the worst possible information. Even having no information at all and simply making an educated guess is better than using information from a biased sample.

Furthermore, the missing information issue cannot be overcome at all even with a good sample. That is to say, what about the people who didn't buy and play the game because they evaluated it and decided they did not like it? They are absolutely a 'no' vote on the game, but don't get "counted" anywhere.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha

That is to say, what about the people who didn't buy and play the game because they evaluated it and decided they did not like it? They are absolutely a 'no' vote on the game, but don't get "counted" anywhere.



Nah. I don't think that people who haven't even played a game get to have a vote on whether or not it's good. A restaurant reviewer doesn't get to review restaurants they haven't eaten at. A film reviewer doesn't get to review films they haven't seen.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by kanisatha

That is to say, what about the people who didn't buy and play the game because they evaluated it and decided they did not like it? They are absolutely a 'no' vote on the game, but don't get "counted" anywhere.


Nah. I don't think that people who haven't even played a game get to have a vote on whether or not it's good. A restaurant reviewer doesn't get to review restaurants they haven't eaten at. A film reviewer doesn't get to review films they haven't seen.


As for the latter, I can tell that some people do.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by kanisatha

That is to say, what about the people who didn't buy and play the game because they evaluated it and decided they did not like it? They are absolutely a 'no' vote on the game, but don't get "counted" anywhere.



Nah. I don't think that people who haven't even played a game get to have a vote on whether or not it's good. A restaurant reviewer doesn't get to review restaurants they haven't eaten at. A film reviewer doesn't get to review films they haven't seen.

Bullshit. How convenient to say someone has to pay up $60 and also get counted as a fan of the game just to say "no this isn't to my liking." I don't have to use cocaine to know that it's a "no" for me.

Accounting for people who didn't respond at all is an integral part of research methodology.

Last edited by kanisatha; 09/11/20 02:24 AM.
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