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Im starting feeling like CRPG just cant do evil route very well. I mean its a night and day difference between something like Tyranny and Crusader Kings with how you deal with "evil choices".

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Originally Posted by Cyka
Im starting feeling like CRPG just cant do evil route very well. I mean its a night and day difference between something like Tyranny and Crusader Kings with how you deal with "evil choices".
But Tyranny does a great job? It's just that BG3's setting is so biased towards good that all evil is cartoonish.

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Tyranny is like Overlord though, you're evil, there is no good or evil path just different forms of be a bad guy. RPGs overall have difficulty with evil paths as they typically boil choice down to kill a person or don't kill, torture a person or don't torture a person. Swtor is good example of this issue since a lot of its dark side choices can be viewed as either psychotically evil or just stupid. They do occasionally hit the mark but I'd say it's still 50-50 at best. It's rare to see options such as manipulation, political power plays or any kinds of thought out actions being offered that can be viewed as morally questionable. That's the problem really, a path shouldn't be seen as blatantly evil it should be seen as an alternate choice, sure some may look at the path and think it's morally questionable but others will look to it and say its the better choice. So far in this EA the evil paths are pretty blatant and offer little at best or actively screw you at worst. I mean burning down the grove for the Absolute or handing it over to the shadow druids gives you nothing. For the short term you get little reward and in the long term you've made no reliable allies, you're just left with blood and ash. If you protect the grove you gain the thanks and adulation of the Teiflings who will be showing up in Baldur's Gate. Ya the druids are a bunch of little shits but keeping them alive and shadowless is the best option as the shadow druids are about as trust worthy as the Absolute cult and it keeps Halsin happy and he's currently the most useful npc you find.

Another issue is when the reward for either side is just a shiny trinket since then it not only lacks any kind of depth but you're also simply playing killer for hire.

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Originally Posted by Cyka
Im starting feeling like CRPG just cant do evil route very well. I mean its a night and day difference between something like Tyranny and Crusader Kings with how you deal with "evil choices".

There are no evil choices in Crusader Kings! Its all for the good of the realm!! 😉

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Neverwinter Nights 2 OC, Mask of the Betrayer and Mysteries of Westgate and some of the Bioware games handled evil quite well so it's not a cRPG issue imo.

I think the issue is that there's too much focus on the good path and a mistake in demographics. Apparently Larian thinks people playing evil are few and those that do are all chaotic evil male players.

Last edited by Moirnelithe; 05/11/20 10:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Neverwinter Nights 2 OC, Mask of the Betrayer and Mysteries of Westgate and some of the Bioware games handled evil quite well so it's not a cRPG issue imo.

I think the issue is that there's too much focus on the good path and a mistake in demographics. Apparently Larian thinks people playing evil are few and those that do are all chaotic evil male players.

Mask of the Betrayer had an amazing "corrupted by power" evil route. BG3 is flopping hard by comparison.

I'm in the middle of the evil route with my gith wizardess and I'm not sure whether to continue. At this point a) the druids have nothing to offer (she already learned from the hag about the netherese magic, what would a druid know about it?), b) the goblins bring nothing interesting to the table, and c) Minthara seems yet another female drow obsessed with her goddess, which is typical for them, but she has nothing substantial for the PC either.

Frankly, the most promising offer so far seemed to be the hag. But of course that was a red herring.

edit: Also Minthara's dialogue is quite buggy.

Last edited by ash elemental; 05/11/20 07:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Frankly, the most promising offer so far seemed to be the hag. But of course that was a red herring.
Everything is.
Gut, Volo and Omeluum are too. The tadpole is there to stay, as is the divine power infused in it. Datamining has shown that the Absolute intends to usurp the domain of the gods (Shadowheart says so in one of her lines at Moonrise), so the "good" and "evil" paths will converge there.
Personally I would want to know what this "evil" path will grant us over the "good" path in the long run, improvements to how it plays out in Act 1A aside. It is definitely in need of some touching up but unless Larian locks you into sticking with "good" and "evil" forever after Act 1A (which I doubt, seeing as on the evil path you could now end up with 0 allies if you fail to convince Minthara not to kill you) there is always room for more moral choices down the line.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Frankly, the most promising offer so far seemed to be the hag. But of course that was a red herring.
Everything is.

I wasn't clear, sorry. By red herring I meant I was expecting her to play a bigger role.

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In regard to choosing good or evil I think they made it worse. You actually dont know what is evil in this game. You can do whatever.
FIrst I was kinda nervous about killing the grove, but after I did it and a while I realized: "Well nothing is happening, hmmm let me continue killing everything, hmmm I finished the first act and everything is dead. Did I actually have a choice and did it matter?"
It's like the Idiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Ark movie: You dont need the characters (like Indiana Jones) in order for the story to happen.

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I enjoyed it, as in general I enjoy the option of an evil route but for my first (and favourite) mc, killing the tieflings (which in EA seems to be the main "evil" decision available) didn't really work RP-wise for my character despite the fact that she's super evil. Would love to see more diverse evil (as well as good and neutral, even though I only evil characters lol) options for different situations (ie: different reasons to make those decisions, more specific dialogue options, etc.) I also like getting the 'Gale disapproves' notif whenever I do something naughty lol

Last edited by Shad0wScale; 06/11/20 03:20 AM.

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So ... i finaly get to goblin camp with another character, without Sazzas help this time, as True Soul ...
And spaming "detect thoughts" on myself before any conversation. laugh

And i must say i was amazed how many things i missed earlier. :3
Im exited once aggain.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Frankly, the most promising offer so far seemed to be the hag. But of course that was a red herring.
Everything is.
Gut, Volo and Omeluum are too. The tadpole is there to stay, as is the divine power infused in it. Datamining has shown that the Absolute intends to usurp the domain of the gods (Shadowheart says so in one of her lines at Moonrise), so the "good" and "evil" paths will converge there.
Personally I would want to know what this "evil" path will grant us over the "good" path in the long run, improvements to how it plays out in Act 1A aside. It is definitely in need of some touching up but unless Larian locks you into sticking with "good" and "evil" forever after Act 1A (which I doubt, seeing as on the evil path you could now end up with 0 allies if you fail to convince Minthara not to kill you) there is always room for more moral choices down the line.


At least Omeluum acts in good faith and gives you a decent alternative to protect yourself. The hag and Gut just want to skrew you over and Halsin explains the netherese shadow magic protecting the tadpole makes it impossible to rid yourself of the critter. The same I immagine would be true for the Gityanki "purification" ritual

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Originally Posted by Tulkash01
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Frankly, the most promising offer so far seemed to be the hag. But of course that was a red herring.
Everything is.
Gut, Volo and Omeluum are too. The tadpole is there to stay, as is the divine power infused in it. Datamining has shown that the Absolute intends to usurp the domain of the gods (Shadowheart says so in one of her lines at Moonrise), so the "good" and "evil" paths will converge there.
Personally I would want to know what this "evil" path will grant us over the "good" path in the long run, improvements to how it plays out in Act 1A aside. It is definitely in need of some touching up but unless Larian locks you into sticking with "good" and "evil" forever after Act 1A (which I doubt, seeing as on the evil path you could now end up with 0 allies if you fail to convince Minthara not to kill you) there is always room for more moral choices down the line.


At least Omeluum acts in good faith and gives you a decent alternative to protect yourself. The hag and Gut just want to skrew you over and Halsin explains the netherese shadow magic protecting the tadpole makes it impossible to rid yourself of the critter. The same I immagine would be true for the Gityanki "purification" ritual


Don't forget Volo, maybe in good faith but you will end seriosly damaged. Being a bad, very bad, player I'm tempted to create a really low int character that tries both the Hag and Volo's cures. Just to see how much of impact there is in playing a toon that has lost both his eyes, or to see if the poor fella wil die. laugh laugh laugh

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Yeah, even when I wanted to play an evil character, the "evil" route seemed to provide little to no rewards or reasons for playing it. It seemed way more rewarding and logical to make good choices but for evil reasons, something the game of course ignores because it doesn't ask you for your reasons. That leads to the game seeing your evil character as good, which is not exactly ideal but I suppose there isn't a way around this.

The best solution would be to provide some nuance and more options for the Evil route. Someone in another thread suggested removing Kagha entirely and reworking the Grove conflict to yield rewards for the evil route as well. That feels a little radical to me, personally, I feel like Kagha could be salvaged with some adjustments and rewriting. Perhaps make her conflicted side more visible, and make siding with her rewarding.

Also, I'd like formally apologise for Ragnarok and say that not all Czech people are like that.

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Originally Posted by firebird71
Also, I'd like formally apologise for Ragnarok and say that not all Czech people are like that.

That was rather unnecessary. We'll have less of that, please.


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Originally Posted by Eddiar

Maybe the evil playthrough can impact my camp look as well. It would become more savage looking, maybe I can hire Drow and Ogre merceneries.
Have evil pillage and conquest questlines... something!
Honestly burning the orphanage just because it makes me so edgy is not that attractive of a choice.


LoL - now this is what I call speaking me from the soul.
I started my EarlyAccess "Evil run" a day ago and I already see myself failing it miserably.
These are not evil choices.
These are DUMB choices!!
Insane choices! They do not make sense and give much benefit.


But I am only at the start of it all. Maybe I find a way to masterfully play them all for my evil mastermind purposses like the "evil Fouldblood Tiefling" that I am.
Should I be unable to properly ally with the Goblins, Duergar or Drow though, then I see no reason to make myself even more enemys.

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I dunno ... it seem to me like many people making that mistake, to expect themself to become pupetmaster in level 2, act 1, after few seconds of talking with few people in allready established machinery of goblin army, wich is working just fine without them until now ...
I wonder what rewards do you expect to get ...

That reminds me first slide of one comics, simmilar to order of the stick, if you know it ... also based on DnD:
Narrator: In the begining there was world ... and few people decided to play.
1st player: "I will play ultra powerfull Elf-Wizard."
2nd player: "Then i shall play undefeatable Human-fighter!"
3rd player: "In that case i would like to be skilled Dwarf-alchemist."
4th player: "I shall play feared Halfling-rogue tief with lot of criminal history."
Narrator: And that is how world gets its heroes.
DM: (out of story, sitting by desk with four people) "I hate to ruin it to you guys, but you are all technicaly on level 1."
Narrator: And that is how world gets its yet quite insignificant characters, that will try to find their place in it.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dunno ... it seem to me like many people making that mistake, to expect themself to become pupetmaster in level 2, act 1, after few seconds of talking with few people in allready established machinery of goblin army, wich is working just fine without them until now ...
I wonder what rewards do you expect to get ...

That reminds me first slide of one comics, simmilar to order of the stick, if you know it ... also based on DnD:
Narrator: In the begining there was world ... and few people decided to play.
1st player: "I will play ultra powerfull Elf-Wizard."
2nd player: "Then i shall play undefeatable Human-fighter!"
3rd player: "In that case i would like to be skilled Dwarf-alchemist."
4th player: "I shall play feared Halfling-rogue tief with lot of criminal history."
Narrator: And that is how world gets its heroes.
DM: (out of story, sitting by desk with four people) "I hate to ruin it to you guys, but you are all technicaly on level 1."
Narrator: And that is how world gets its yet quite insignificant characters, that will try to find their place in it.
You're not playing TT DnD. This is a video game. Larian defines the boundaries of their storytelling very rigidly. It is up to the players to give them feedback on these boundaries and see where they need to be expanded or adjusted. What you are doing is pushing these boundaries in your imagination without relaying it back to the game. This gets us nowhere.

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At the very least we should have an evil path that is not the chaotic evil we currently have.

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I feel like cheotic evil is a comfortable excuse for bad writing. "The storyline is weak and doesn't make sense? That's because it's cheotic evil!"


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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