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Originally Posted by Abits
I feel like cheotic evil is a comfortable excuse for bad writing. "The storyline is weak and doesn't make sense? That's because it's cheotic evil!"

I think it makes a lot of sense. Some people are just slower at seeing at the moment; the current story doesn't reveal that much either.
I have no idea how no one even points out an 'ethereal plane spider' down in the 'Whispering depths'.
Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.
We are all under some sort of illusion, or worse...

I wrote some more of my personal observations here - https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=730431#Post730431


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Originally Posted by Vamathi
Originally Posted by Abits
I feel like cheotic evil is a comfortable excuse for bad writing. "The storyline is weak and doesn't make sense? That's because it's cheotic evil!"

I think it makes a lot of sense. Some people are just slower at seeing at the moment; the current story doesn't reveal that much either.
I have no idea how no one even points out an 'ethereal plane spider' down in the 'Whispering depths'.
Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.
We are all under some sort of illusion, or worse...

I wrote some more of my personal observations here - https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=730431#Post730431

Great theory there too bad half of it looks like Chinese to me.
I've said it before, if it's not in the game, it's invalid. And I'm not talking about all these Easter eggs themselves, I'm talking about the context that the player need to realize their significance. When adapting anything into something else (in our case, a world setting into a video game) the adapted product must stand on its own. I don't particularly care about forgotten realms lore and I don't know much about it. But if a game set in the forgotten realms is good enough, it will tell me enough about it to enjoy it. There are aspects of FR lore that bg3 explains well enough, for example mind flyers and tedpoles. I don't need to know everything there is to know about them, just enough for the game to make sense. If I need to read dozens of FR lore pages just to understand the story, the story is bad.

Other than that, your theory doesn't address any of the main issues we raised regarding the flaws of the evil path, specifically the lack of incentives to presue it.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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I was going to complain that the good route was too limiting and that I was forced to take evil actions too often. After failing several social checks with my 16 Cha warlock that had training in all three social skills and friends cantrip up, it was either slaughter time for evil goblins or let the poor tieflings die. I choose the goblins. So pissed that I got every last one of them. I didn't like being stuck with the evil fighter and cleric, but compromises must be made in the name of good. I think evil and good should meet in the middle to work together and get a job done...hey wait, that's neutral! So your evil PC has to work with non-evil characters and do non-evil things to further their goals, namely getting the damned tadpole out of your head, just like my good character has to bloody the blade once in a while. There are no good options of building an orphanage for the goblin children after you slaughter their tribe...

Bigger complaint was that my character is far less interesting and engaging than anyone of these bozos I've met and their sinister backgrounds.

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Originally Posted by Abits
Great theory there too bad half of it looks like Chinese to me.
I've said it before, if it's not in the game, it's invalid. And I'm not talking about all these Easter eggs themselves, I'm talking about the context that the player need to realize their significance. When adapting anything into something else (in our case, a world setting into a video game) the adapted product must stand on its own. I don't particularly care about forgotten realms lore and I don't know much about it. But if a game set in the forgotten realms is good enough, it will tell me enough about it to enjoy it. There are aspects of FR lore that bg3 explains well enough, for example mind flyers and tedpoles. I don't need to know everything there is to know about them, just enough for the game to make sense. If I need to read dozens of FR lore pages just to understand the story, the story is bad.

Other than that, your theory doesn't address any of the main issues we raised regarding the flaws of the evil path, specifically the lack of incentives to presue it.

While I completely see your point, some of the more recent DnD adventures, that I played myself as well - have been significantly popular - because the players were constantly pushed towards certain goal.
They were less about get lost doing random evil things and more about survival. This creates really interesting party dynamics.
It also let's players deal with some interesting moral choices and can lead to a lot of surprise plot twists. Usually, when you look back at your choices, you are like: 'How didn't I see that? It was right there, in front of me...'

I believe Larian might gone onto similar route, dropping players as strangers in this world.
Familiar enough to recognize some things, but quite chaotic and senseless.
I hope things will get much clearer once we left Moonrise. I do enjoy puzzles and figuring stuff out, but the plot is all over the place right now.


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Originally Posted by Vamathi

While I completely see your point, some of the more recent DnD adventures, that I played myself as well - have been significantly popular - because the players were constantly pushed towards certain goal.
They were less about get lost doing random evil things and more about survival. This creates really interesting party dynamics.
It also let's players deal with some interesting moral choices and can lead to a lot of surprise plot twists. Usually, when you look back at your choices, you are like: 'How didn't I see that? It was right there, in front of me...'

I believe Larian might gone onto similar route, dropping players as strangers in this world.
Familiar enough to recognize some things, but quite chaotic and senseless.
I hope things will get much clearer once we left Moonrise. I do enjoy puzzles and figuring stuff out, but the plot is all over the place right now.

What you are talking about here reminds me of the first Witcher game (it is something that was in the subsequent games but much more subtle there) the idea of a choice coming back to bite you in the ass much later down the line or creating unexpected results. But if that is what Larian tried to do here, they still failed. Even in the smallest choices of that nature in the Witcher, you had something to gain and something to lose from each choice and you had some vague idea of what that is. There might be other consequences you were not aware of, but there were risks and rewards that were instantly appearnt.

In our case it is simply not so. Even a cheotic evil character can kill as many goblins as tieflings, so unless you roleplay as a tiefling racisi or a goblin lover chaotic evil character, there is absolutely no reason to choose to kill all the tieflings and not all the goblins. Killing all the goblins will lead you to a solid lead to solving your problem, and killing all the tieflings is... What Mintara told you to do so it's evil?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
What you are doing is pushing these boundaries in your imagination without relaying it back to the game. This gets us nowhere.

Im not ... and i spend more than enought time showing you multiple examples where anything i ever wroted is related to game ... you dont want to see it, you just want me to be wrong, no matter what i say ... we dont have dialogue here, its two independent monologues.
That certainly dont gets us anywhere ...

Originally Posted by Abits
I feel like cheotic evil is a comfortable excuse for bad writing. "The storyline is weak and doesn't make sense? That's because it's cheotic evil!"

Oh please ... 95% of people here are mostly disliking the fact they didnt get powerfull enough items, and huge bonuses ...
I have seen like 2, maybe 3 who didnt like the writing and being even able to tell why they didnt like, or what they didnt like about it. -_-

Does that makes this topic also just "confortable excuse" to get advantage in equipment?


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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What equipment who cares about stupid equipment? We talk about writing.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
The evil path should lead to equal, if not greater rewards compared to the good path...

Originally Posted by nation
i wonder how/if larian incorporates any feedback to modify an 'evil' playthrough to make it more worthwhile to pursue for the player to even out that 75v25 dynamic, ie quest rewards,

Originally Posted by Abits
You go to the goblin camp (and with the way the game works usually you already have the quest to kill the goblins by that point after establishing them as threat and providing you with possible rewards)

Originally Posted by coredumped
The rewards should be better and the path should be easier.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
So Evil Option 1) I side with the duegar and kill all these characters. I have to kill insane amounts of enemies equipped with poisons. Lose all these potential storylines for.... what? Some level 3-4 loot?

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The rewards for an evil playthrough are terrible.

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Just something meaningful as a reward!

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The rewards for doing this are laughable and not worth it at all, compared to the items and artifacts you obtain by killing the Goblin leaders.

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The goblin leaders will hand you their powerful artifacts, the same as you would obtain by killing them, as a reward after raiding the grove. Mintharra gives you her magic items.

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The Goblin raid of the grove and the rewards are just terribly dissapointing and poorly written. Please read the suggestions carefully and change this up, so that it makes more sense to side with them, with greater incentive and greater rewards.

Originally Posted by firebird71
Yeah, even when I wanted to play an evil character, the "evil" route seemed to provide little to no rewards or reasons for playing it.

Originally Posted by firebird71
Perhaps make her conflicted side more visible, and make siding with her rewarding.


Yeah ... "writing" ...


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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As my man captain Jack said "not all treasure is silver and gold my friend". I honestly think you are much smarter than you show here, and I honestly doubt that you honestly think that when we talk about rewards we talk about magic items.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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When you read those quotes ... and its not even everything ...
You will find out that some people litteraly did. wink


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Yeah now I remember why I don't like arguing with you. Instead of talking to me you prefer to invest a lot of time in debunking something I never said, while taking a thing I did say out of context


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Loot is one thing, but for me the reward is in the outcome of the plot and the immediate world around me based upon my decisions and thus my morale compass.

So far the evil route doesn’t appear to sell itself at all to you. Even the dream sequences don’t seem to suggest control and power, at least not enough to overwrite the idea of it being a horrible trap into giving in and becoming a mindflayer.

Then no one else “I met”, even suggested another way. Again, the whole set-up is “get rid of tadpole”! Every character we meet who tags along says the same, Raphael tries to tempt us in order to help. That is for all intents and purposes “our story”.

So based upon that how do I act? And I think this is the issue of kinda not being that important (hero/messiah complex) and being free to waltz around. No one tries to pick you out of a crowd. Anyone you meet usually ends up wanting to insult and or kill you. I certainly feel as though the goblins need to not just be subjugated by you using your tadpole but also actively then want to get you in front of Minthara first and foremost. Then it’s a who makes the best case. I might not trust Minthara, but if she sells the Absolute and being able to help me sooner then I might listen.

The issue is, by the time I get to her I might as well just slaughter them all and free the Druid. There you go, I’m either a hero or still a murderhobo but it’s disappointing that I’ve not been sold a seedy darker route out of my predicament early enough for me to care.

I caveat all of this by saying I’ve only done 1 play through so far and was rather chaotic good/flirted with evil, so I’m not a character to seek it out, but that has always been my point, I shouldn’t have to work at being evil, evil should be the easy route. Avoiding the temptation, working for a good outcome and becoming the hero, that’s the challenge and that’s reward.

TLDR reward very much = story (oh and the odd shiny item).

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
When you read those quotes ... and its not even everything ...
You will find out that some people litteraly did. wink
"Rewards" does not mean gold and swords, but it could mean a more solid lead on fixing the tadpole problem or giving you stronger allies down the line. The evil route does not do that at the moment, the goblins always betray you and Minthra often does too. Halsin is objectively your best bet, because Minthara, Gut and the goblins all want to kill you. The player knows this even without meta knowledge. A smart evil player would therefore always side with the Tieflings; they just have the most to offer and stand the least in your way.

Honestly Kagha as a third option would already solve a lot, if Zevlor didn't ape jump you when you tell him it's time to leave. When you betray him at the gate, the player says "sorry, but Minthara and her cult are the best option I have". When was this established? They are hostile to you all the time, show they know nothing about the tadpole and Halsin clearly does. He even studied one up close. What in all of that incentivises the player to murder a group of innocent refugees for some hostile tadpole denialists that betray you, other than "ooh I'm evil!"?

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Originally Posted by Abits
What you are talking about here reminds me of the first Witcher game (it is something that was in the subsequent games but much more subtle there) the idea of a choice coming back to bite you in the ass much later down the line or creating unexpected results. But if that is what Larian tried to do here, they still failed. Even in the smallest choices of that nature in the Witcher, you had something to gain and something to lose from each choice and you had some vague idea of what that is. There might be other consequences you were not aware of, but there were risks and rewards that were instantly appearnt.

In our case it is simply not so. Even a cheotic evil character can kill as many goblins as tieflings, so unless you roleplay as a tiefling racisi or a goblin lover chaotic evil character, there is absolutely no reason to choose to kill all the tieflings and not all the goblins. Killing all the goblins will lead you to a solid lead to solving your problem, and killing all the tieflings is... What Mintara told you to do so it's evil?

Yes, I think it could be much like TW1 quests (although I see a lot of links with deities/factions so I think it could directly affect their power). So sad there weren't a lot of quests like Whispering Hillock Spirit in TW3.
And I agree, it's frustrating not to know right now. As I said, I hope it's obvious once we leave Moonrise.

I think evil character should just get enough information from both to know they are useless (Halsin doesn't even tell you anything before you kill the leaders, so he is also manipulating you and than just wants to get to Moonrise...)
do some other encounters and/or exploration to get XP and head to Moonrise. I know it's doable to be level 4 without engaging with either of them. I know I will be speedrunning there once the game releases... I need to know.


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There's flaws with the whole D&D morality system itself. I'll post more on that once I've powernapped. For now I'll say there's this little thing called "reasons" and "context". Why people do "evil" things. yet may be "loyal" for example.

Anyone else remember that evil dwarf in Throne of Bhaal in BG2? You can play as a good none judgemental character (or any alignment really). And he'll quickly stick an axe in you if you claim the moral high ground (at least that's what he implies). But if you simply coexist" you'll have a little moment just before the final boss where he starts to become just a tiny bit sentimental.

The drow from BG2 is also another good example. And Sarevok from the Throne of Bhaal expansion. Not "Evil" for the sake of it, but "complex". Driven. "Action and reaction".

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Originally Posted by Taramafor
Not "Evil" for the sake of it, but "complex". Driven.
This. You can stop all discussion from here on out, this is all you need.

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Originally Posted by Taramafor
There's flaws with the whole D&D morality system itself. I'll post more on that once I've powernapped. For now I'll say there's this little thing called "reasons" and "context". Why people do "evil" things. yet may be "loyal" for example.

Anyone else remember that evil dwarf in Throne of Bhaal in BG2? You can play as a good none judgemental character (or any alignment really). And he'll quickly stick an axe in you if you claim the moral high ground (at least that's what he implies). But if you simply coexist" you'll have a little moment just before the final boss where he starts to become just a tiny bit sentimental.

The drow from BG2 is also another good example. And Sarevok from the Throne of Bhaal expansion. Not "Evil" for the sake of it, but "complex". Driven. "Action and reaction".


I don't think the morality system is necessarily flawed, it's just that people always focus on the 'evil' part and not what comes before, which usually leads to every 'evil' choices in games converging into the most extreme form of 'chaotic evil'.

Lawful and neutral evil usually get the shaft, despite being the most nuanced alignments (imo), and arguably producing the most interesting characters. Edwin, and in some measure Viconia, are prime examples from the BG franchise itself.

When i think about this Kotor usually comes to mind. Revan is described as this 'lawful evil' mastermind, and yet in-game the only choices are smart/good or chaotic stupid evil.


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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Taramafor
Not "Evil" for the sake of it, but "complex". Driven.
This. You can stop all discussion from here on out, this is all you need.


Not just complex, evil should be rewarding. Why people steal or work for mafia? They do if for profit. If the whole benefit is having sex with some drow who sounds like an old truck and wants to kill you afterwards then it is not exactly rewarding. It seems like a bad investment.

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Originally Posted by Verte
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Taramafor
Not "Evil" for the sake of it, but "complex". Driven.
This. You can stop all discussion from here on out, this is all you need.


Not just complex, evil should be rewarding. Why people steal or work for mafia? They do if for profit. If the whole benefit is having sex with some drow who sounds like an old truck and wants to kill you afterwards then it is not exactly rewarding. It seems like a bad investment.

Well they also do it out of fear, or depseration, but the rest of the point works.

One of the thoughts I had was regarding Sezza the Goblin (the one in the Tiefling cell within the Grove). She herself tries to sell us on the Absolute and we can free her and sneak out or presumably fight our way out (last time I went through front door a fight ensued) but Sezza dies immediately). Why can't I talk my way out, be deceiptful and say I am using the Goblin to get closer to the Goblin leadership in order to murder them. I mean it's technically a solid plan as far as the Tieflings should be concerned. If I fail to convince them, maybe I could pretend to put Sezza back in her cell (escaping via the back route) / sneakily murder the guards and get out said other way when they insist on locking her back up.

Either way, I am not interested in the Absolute, why would I be? Later, oh later maybe, but Sezza could be just such a hook to ensure her mistress could help me (That or Sezza needs to sell the abilities of the Absolute more so I think to myself that they "could" be an option). With Sezza in tow through the Goblin camp I can "skip" the insults and be sold the concept of helping Minthara and destroying the Druids. Power could be mine!

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Originally Posted by Vamathi

Yes, I think it could be much like TW1 quests (although I see a lot of links with deities/factions so I think it could directly affect their power). So sad there weren't a lot of quests like Whispering Hillock Spirit in TW3.
And I agree, it's frustrating not to know right now. As I said, I hope it's obvious once we leave Moonrise.

I think evil character should just get enough information from both to know they are useless (Halsin doesn't even tell you anything before you kill the leaders, so he is also manipulating you and than just wants to get to Moonrise...)
do some other encounters and/or exploration to get XP and head to Moonrise. I know it's doable to be level 4 without engaging with either of them. I know I will be speedrunning there once the game releases... I need to know.


I agree about the Helsin point, and I think this is the problem when we define the paths as good or evil. I discussed it earlier here with killerabbit and I don't think he realised where I'm coming from so I'll try again. Good evil neutral it doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that if you have a choice to do something in a game, that this choice would feel interesting and meaningful to presue.

And when I say interesting and meaningful to presue I do mean rewarding, but not in the literal item sense of reward, but narratively rewarding. It could even be a bad consequence for my character as long as it is something interesting and impactful.

Example from The Witcher 3 - if you help Triss and the mages escape Novigrad, when you come back you discover the fanatics turned on the non humans. And it is bad, very bad. But in the meta narrative sense, it is a reward. You did something, and it had a meaningful effect on the world.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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