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#731435 10/11/20 04:06 AM
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Is it just mean't to be a light source or is it supposed to be useful in combat? You can cast it like it's a combat spell, but I've never seen it do anything, it's been resisted every time I cast it in either of my 2 run-throughs, but I still try it every now and again.

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Its a damage cantrip with a dex saving throw so small fast things rarely get hit

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Sacred Flame is basically a freebie orison for your cleric to cast at range. It isn't that potent, but there are times you can get a 100% on using it. Not much damage and it has a save component. I know it is highly effective against the Undead - but don't quote me on if that is exactly true or what it is supposed to do. I don't know anything about 5E rules except what I skimmed about the changes on the basics. My experience with it though is that if you have a prone enemy or advantage it can increase from 50 or 45 % to usually 65% to 100% on a prone enemy. I mainly just use it when I'm out of spells or trying to conserve Shadowhearts spell pool for tougher fights. When it hits, it can do some serious damage, but that is when it hits. Since Shadowheart has a negative to her range ability I pretty much just use this for her until she closes to use melee. It is useful though. The fights just aren't very cleric friendly at the moment. Not many undead and so forth. That is where I think this spell gets more oomph! Oh and it seems to do well against planar enemies like devils/demons. At least when I used it that is on my cleric play through. It is best to use on low hit point enemies or when you are trying to close the gap, but don't want to burn all your actions on dash.

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It is a Divine attack cantrip (cost no spell slots) but, instead of rolling an attack roll, the target must make a Dexterity Saving Throw.
( Arcane casters do not know or use that cantrip )

* it does 1d8 damage if the target fails its save ...
* At level 5, it will do 2d8 though...

* its main bonus is that it ignores all cover, low terrain disadvantage, etc.

* in BG3, it can hit a prone target at 100% chance.

* it does Radiant damage, which some creatures are vulnerable to (like Vampires) [reminded by Ghost King's post above]

So, in general, normal ranged attack rolls (arrows, etc.) are better, except if the target is prone or if the target is really hard to hit.
( In BG3 Early Access, enemies tend to have Dex 12+, so this cantrip is a bit weak )

Last edited by Baraz; 10/11/20 04:25 AM.
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Sacred flame isn't the greatest cantrip, because it only hits if the target fails a DEX saving throw. Lots of creatures will have at least a decent DEX, while also might having proficiency in DEX saving throws. This means they will roll a d20 with maybe a +5 to beat your Spell save DC, which as a cleric will be 8 + Proficiency + WIS modifier(which will only be 13-14 in EA.) Spell save attacks are hard to land in the earlier levels, but as you level up, your Spell save DC will increase which can make it more accurate against high AC enemies than attacks sometimes.

The early weakness of Spell Save spells are highlighted in BG3 vs 5e, because everyone and their grandma can get advantage on attack rolls, and spell saves don't get any bonuses from that.

If you aren't landing any hits on Sacred flame though, you need to make sure you start with a 16 in wisdom. Clerics are full casters, so unless you are going for a purposefully awkward build, you will want to max your spellcasting score.

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Originally Posted by Evandir

The early weakness of Spell Save spells are highlighted in BG3 vs 5e, because everyone and their grandma can get advantage on attack rolls, and spell saves don't get any bonuses from that.


In addition, because enemy HP is buffed as well, even hitting with it doesn't feel as solid as it should.

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The good thing about it is you dont need line of site.

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Hmm. I've probably cast it a couple hundred times, and I've *never* seen it land.

Go random, I guess.

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It's pretty trash even in pen-and-paper D&D 5e.

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Knocking targets prone limits the targets saving throw to "1" making sacred flame always hit. Combine that with a mage and grease or ray of frost to maximize damage synergies.

At level 1-4 the highest we can get the DC is 14. From what I can research, caster Difficulty Check for landing spells that have a saving throw is (8 + your Spellcasting Ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus). Highest we can get a stat is +4 and highest proficiency bonus is +2 until level 5 (+3), level 9 (+4), level 13 (+5), and level 17 (+6). So (8 + 4 + 2 = 14), but typically we will be playing at a DC of 13 for most casters right now. Meaning any target has to roll a 13 or higher with stat bonuses. If the target has +2 in dex, then they only have to roll an 11.

If we were level 9, now our DC would be 15-16, making it more likely to get a spell like sacred flame to land....anyway, that isn't happening right now, so we need to reduce the saving throw on the targets. Best way is prone and/or disadvantage.

Bane of course, or to cause disadvantage.

I was trying to test just now if things like shocking grasp (no reactions) or sleep helped sacred flame land.

Shocking grasp did not reduce saving throws.
Sleep did reduce save to 1.
Hold Person reduces save to 1.
Halt did not reduce saving throws.
Invisibility on caster did not reduce saving throws.
Threaten by being in melee range did not (of course, only on attacker's ranged attacks and not on defender's roll).
Fog cloud did not and I couldn't even cast sacred flame on the target because I was always "too far" to see the target.
I did not have a raw blind spell to test to see if that reduces saving throws, but fairly certain it will not, just reduces attacker's change to hit.

"pretty sure" bless and guidance do not help sacred flame, because that gives you advantage as an attacker and the saving throw is for the defender. So same with invoke duplicity.

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Wastes a turn in my experience. It can be nice when Shadowheart isn't in melee.

I'd prefer to just give her a crossbow, but she has 9 DEX for some insane reason.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Wastes a turn in my experience.

Came here to post the same thing.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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True, just trying to break down the mechanic and see how "best" to use it, if used at all.

If you have a mage and a cleric, and you want to minimize spell slot usage, combining cantrips together is not a bad choice. Otherwise blow all your spells and then just rest afterwards.

Also, CC on a target (or multiple targets) isn't always a waste, and if you can CC out a target and then finish with some dmg after their turn, then win win.

Last edited by CMF; 10/11/20 09:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by RumRunner151
The good thing about it is you dont need line of site.


That has to be a bug. Even though there's no attack roll, I'm pretty sure you should not be able to cast it on someone you can't see at all because there's a solid wall between you and them.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
It's pretty trash even in pen-and-paper D&D 5e.


I've watched a lot of Critical Role, and yeah, it's generally used as the "I have nothing better to do option", and even then it's rarely effective.

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hitting shadowheart with sacredflame is quite ez smile

pro tip

cleric spell are often best use in conjuncture with another magic type

such as HEX : DEX or Grease spells

its also worth to take time and examine the monster to see if its AC is higher then its DEX so you know if you should do Ranged attacks or cast sacred flame

keep in mind that in 5e your to hit chance is base of your level and not your class

every one have +2(lv 1-4) and then you add you Dex/str or in case of a spell you spell modifier cleric is wisdom

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 06:12 PM.

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Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
hitting shadowheart with sacredflame is quite ez smile

pro tip

cleric spell are often best use in conjuncture with another magic type

such as HEX : DEX or Grease spells

its also worth to take time and examine the monster to see if its AC is higher then its DEX so you know if you should do Ranged attacks or cast sacred flame

keep in mind that in 5e your to hit chance is base of your level and not your class

every one have +2(lv 1-4) and then you add you Dex/str or in case of a spell you spell modifier cleric is wisdom

The Hex (Warlock spell) disadvantage on an Ability does *not* affect Saving Throws. It therefore should not (5e) affect Sacred Flame at all, unless Larian modified the Hex debuff.

The Hex debuff on Str, for example, should help for Shove, grapple, etc. (in 5e anyhow), but not on Str Saving Throws.

True though that inspecting an enemy is useful to see what are their low Abilities.

Last edited by Baraz; 10/11/20 06:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by Baraz
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self
hitting shadowheart with sacredflame is quite ez smile

pro tip

cleric spell are often best use in conjuncture with another magic type

such as HEX : DEX or Grease spells

its also worth to take time and examine the monster to see if its AC is higher then its DEX so you know if you should do Ranged attacks or cast sacred flame

keep in mind that in 5e your to hit chance is base of your level and not your class

every one have +2(lv 1-4) and then you add you Dex/str or in case of a spell you spell modifier cleric is wisdom

The Hex (Warlock spell) disadvantage on an Ability does *not* affect Saving Throws. It therefore should not (5e) affect Sacred Flame at all, unless Larian modified the Hex debuff.

The Hex debuff on Str, for example, should help for Shove, grapple, etc. (in 5e anyhow), but not on Str Saving Throws.

True though that inspecting an enemy is useful to see what are their low Abilities.


MAKING A SAVING THROW

To make a saving throw, roll a D20 and add the appropriate Ability Modifier for the character. Just like Ability Checks and Attack Rolls, you must hit the target number or higher in order to succeed.

A saving throw can be modified by a situational bonus or penalty and can be affected by Advantage and Disadvantage.

Saving Throw: Dexterity for sacred flame

HEX

Description: Curse a creature to deal an additional 1d6 Necrotic whenever you hit it with an attack. The creature also has disadvantage on ability checks[/b] for one ability of your choosing.

Disadvantage is a mechanic in Baldur's Gate 3. While players are under the effect of Disadvantage and perform an ability check, saving throw or an attack roll they will roll a second D20 while making that role and use the lower of those rolls to decide the outcome.

[/i][/u][u][i][b]

Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 07:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

MAKING A SAVING THROW

To make a saving throw, roll a D20 and add the appropriate Ability Modifier for the character. Just like Ability Checks and Attack Rolls, you must hit the target number or higher in order to succeed.

A saving throw can be modified by a situational bonus or penalty and can be affected by Advantage and Disadvantage.

Saving Throw: Dexterity for sacred flame

HEX

Description: Curse a creature to deal an additional 1d6 Necrotic whenever you hit it with an attack. The creature also has [b]disadvantage on ability checks[/b] for one ability of your choosing.

Disadvantage is a mechanic in Baldur's Gate 3. While players are under the effect of Disadvantage and perform an ability check, saving throw or an attack roll they will roll a second D20 while making that role and use the lower of those rolls to decide the outcome.

A Saving Throw is different than an Ability Check, as your 2nd line reads.

If your final line implies that in BG3, if you ever have (dis)advantage, then it applies to STs, Ability Checks, and Attack rolls, then Larian has modified this from 5e rules-as-written.
In 5e, you can get (dis)advantage on one, two, or all 3 of those depending on the source. It's not always all 3.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

MAKING A SAVING THROW

To make a saving throw, roll a D20 and add the appropriate Ability Modifier for the character. Just like Ability Checks and Attack Rolls, you must hit the target number or higher in order to succeed.

A saving throw can be modified by a situational bonus or penalty and can be affected by Advantage and Disadvantage.

Saving Throw: Dexterity for sacred flame

HEX

Description: Curse a creature to deal an additional 1d6 Necrotic whenever you hit it with an attack. The creature also has [b]disadvantage on ability checks[/b] for one ability of your choosing.

Disadvantage is a mechanic in Baldur's Gate 3. While players are under the effect of Disadvantage and perform an ability check, saving throw or an attack roll they will roll a second D20 while making that role and use the lower of those rolls to decide the outcome.

A Saving Throw is different than an Ability Check, as your 2nd line reads.

If your final line implies that in BG3, if you ever have (dis)advantage, then it applies to STs, Ability Checks, and Attack rolls, then Larian has modified this from 5e rules-as-written.
In 5e, you can get (dis)advantage on one, two, or all 3 of those depending on the source. It's not always all 3.


yes this is not pure 5e dnd this is a video game call baldur's gate 3, this information I gave you come from the official wiki and can be tested in game.



Last edited by Evil_it_Self; 10/11/20 07:36 PM.

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Originally Posted by Evil_it_Self

yes this is not pure 5e dnd this is a video game call baldur's gate 3, this information I gave you come from the official wiki and can be tested in game.

I did just test it.

Hag who has been hexed to have disadvantage on Dex Ability Checks: 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.
Hag who has not been hexed: Also 50% chance to hit with Sacred Flame. Rolled 1d20 in the combat log.

Conclusion: Hex doesn't affect STs
Of course, this might be a bug specific to hags, or Larian might want disadvantage to affect all 3 of STs, ability checks, and attack rolls but have not implemented it yet.

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