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Originally Posted by Tequilaman
So far, going by the recent patch seems they are more worried about petting the dog and correcting cinematics and visual stuff.

There has been no mention of them actually trying to get the rules right, given that it's a D&D 5E and there are many mistakes (ie: mages learning cleric spells from scrolls, bonus action jumping to disengage + all the stuff in this forum.....).

I just finished Solasta EA and I'm surprised at how many things they got right for a 16-man team! I mean, I can even use the dodge action, reaction when something attacks me or even counterspell, ready actions....all the basics mostly works fine too.

So how come many things be done right by a much smaller team? But not by Larian.

I don't really know if Larian is listening.

What do you think?


Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


I think, they do what they need to do - fix bugs in EA while people are still around to report them. They will do mechanical changes, add classes, feats and more at a later stage. This EA will last good year and a half, there is a lot of time for everything.

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Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/11/20 07:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.

That is exactly how I feel man... I truly believe we have a game of the year contender. With the right fixes and gamemaster mode it could easily rival never winter nights in replay value. That game still has full servers.

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Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That is really impressive.

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We are not comparing apples to apples here, in budget, technology, developers... etc. Still somehow Solasta has been able to (IMO) create a Gameplay and Combat system that is mechanically and tactically better than Larian's BG3:

- In depth showing of the dice, attack damage, saves, abilities)
- Clear and understandable recap of rolls (advantage, disadvantage, feats, abilities, lighting, etc. etc.)
- Easy to split PCs
- Available Options based on remaining action economy
- Long rests are tied to Time and Supplies, cannot be spammed
- Short Rests now have a use, hit dice and clear what is regained during (Channel Divinity, Spells slots, etc.)
- Switching weapons requires economy and can only be done once a turn minimizing abuse
- Ritual casting!
- Concentration warnings
- Dodge, Shove, Disengage, Stabilize, Ready, Reactions, Hide. All implemented as RAW.
- Proper advantage/disadvantage and cover. You can't get adv from standing on a small rock, or walking 180 degrees around a non flanked target!
- Creatures have expected AC, HP, Saves.
- No food abundance, Stabilize does not get people up to 1hp. This puts back the importance of health potions and healing again!
- There isn't fire, acid, ice, explosive barrels every 10 feet. Cantrips are back to their normal strength.

I really hope Larian is listening to feedback. Moreover I hope they are seeing what a gameplay and combat system with an actual identity looks like, while theirs is in limbo between DOS and DND.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.


Agree. I can make do without non-essentials and small talk, but exact steps and roadmap is a must, imo. And Solasta team is smaller!
Admittedly, sometimes more people having a vote in democracy=longer councils, but aren't Larian is a normal company with all roles set?

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Would be very nice to have this post stickied and updated as new information from the team goes in:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719776#Post719776

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Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.

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The updates thus far have been dozens of crash and bug fixes. Of course that's going to take priority over balancing and rule changes. No one is going to care if Cantrips are different than the PHB version if the game crashes on startup.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.


No one said they needed to provide an detailed description of the solution. The least which could have been done was acknowledging the feedback they've received.

The last update shared data on the number of people who pet the dog, and who romanced who, but didn't even acknowledge that they've read feedback on some of the other issues. 11 months isn't that long a time.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.

That is a good update
-a long discussion about light: the changes and why they originally made them, the player response during EA, and an agreement to listen and look into other options based on that player feedback
-"inventory and shopping improvements, hand-picked from your suggestions"
-a roadmap of things to expect in the coming months

I, at least, am not expecting Larian to implement all (or any) of our changes in their next update. That's obviously expecting too much.
But an acknowledgement of our feedback (1 or 2 of the bigger things) and a rough roadmap would go a long way. Stabbey says it best: currently it feels like we're shouting into the void.
My feedback for Larian: throw us a bone. I want to be here. I want to help make the game better. Let me know that my/our feedback is doing something.

@Fisher: That's what "Launch Community Update" was for. And if they had done "Launch Update pt 2, pt 3, etc," that would have been fine. The problem was they put out a new Community Update, starting with "it's big patch time." Then spent most of it talking about (misleading) stats and ending with a conclusion that implied they had 0 understanding of a huge problem with the current evil playthrough, a problem that took up a decent amount of forum space and that they specifically asked us to test and provide feedback on.

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Originally Posted by Fisher
The updates thus far have been dozens of crash and bug fixes. Of course that's going to take priority over balancing and rule changes. No one is going to care if Cantrips are different than the PHB version if the game crashes on startup.



I hope I'm wrong, but bug reports number after the latest patch just increased, not decreased. More problems have been caused than fixed after 27th October, and it's roughly two weeks now. Just saying.

Last edited by Ellenhard; 10/11/20 07:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.


What an irony: if they won't say the safeword, even more feedback would come over time, even if the players report more of the same sometimes. Burying them in work even more.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.

They aren't exactly supposed to address all of it, either.
Identifying a bunch (hell, let's say three) of the top recurring complaints and just stating how they are CONSIDERING moving about them would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note, we are more or less an hour away to learn if my baseless guess about the fact that we are getting a patch today turns out to be true.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.



100% agree!!! I wish they would TRUST core DND rules more!!!!

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.



While i liked Solasta i found the combat more fun in BG3, and i am betting many other players who dont play Tabletop feel the same, the issues so many Tabletop players have is because you are looking at a game you regularly play and enjoy
and you dont like to see any changes to it, but as someone who dosent play Tabletop and has played both games EA with no prior Opinions i found BG3 to be far more fun.
Sure they have a lot of things they should fix, many of 5E rules i have seen posted seem very logical and i am sure they will make adjustments.

And dont forget that for a team of 17 people it is very easy to have a sit down and decide on changes, Larian is 250-300 people, the structure is completely different the way decisions are made is far more complex and the scope of the game is far bigger any change might impact many other things we are not taking in to account but the devs do.

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Listen.

You're not being paid to develop this game. There is an entire army of developers, managers, artists and what have you that want to press their own interests with this game. I was going in with an open mind, but I've quickly confirmed what is going on here. You just got to take a look at how the forum looks, it's old, outdated, forgotten really. Even if you have pin-point perfect feedback, where are they even supposed to look, all the sub-forums are catch-all bins with no specific seperation inside, you can't even find your own thread after one day because it gets swamped by all the other threads that are so rapidly created. I haven't seen any dev-team member post outside of their announcement threads, to me, if they were serious about taking in player feedback, they would have adressed all these things before the EA even started.

The only thing they are willing to take seems to be what is fed to the algo from each of our playthroughs, which is a handy statistic to have, but it ain't player feedback.


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Larian team members do read these forums and note the points being made.

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Originally Posted by jayn23
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.



While i liked Solasta i found the combat more fun in BG3, and i am betting many other players who dont play Tabletop feel the same, the issues so many Tabletop players have is because you are looking at a game you regularly play and enjoy
and you dont like to see any changes to it, but as someone who dosent play Tabletop and has played both games EA with no prior Opinions i found BG3 to be far more fun.
Sure they have a lot of things they should fix, many of 5E rules i have seen posted seem very logical and i am sure they will make adjustments.

And dont forget that for a team of 17 people it is very easy to have a sit down and decide on changes, Larian is 250-300 people, the structure is completely different the way decisions are made is far more complex and the scope of the game is far bigger any change might impact many other things we are not taking in to account but the devs do.


Well, that’s a matter of acknowledging the feedbacks from the community and not to actually change it. We’re not expecting them to implement the DnD5e rules by the book, yet there are pain points spread all over this forum with actual arguments regarding balance issues - mainly in the combat pillar.

Compared to redesign the other pillars (social interaction & exploration) - combat is the less tricky one.

Also, I’m not following you regarding head-count comparison between both companies. Address the major complaints of a community should be easier in a larger team compared to a smaller one.

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