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It's weird, I don't know what was different in my game, then. I've seen a lot of people talk about this AI's single-minded pursuit of Gale, and it just wasn't the case in my game. I have no idea why.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Seraphael


There surely must be someone at Larian with an out of control crush on the Wizard class in particular.


It's not just "someone". It's Swen. The big boss. In a recent interview he said that wizards are his favorite class, and that he "always plays a wizard". I mean, when you look at the choices they've made in this game, it all starts to make sense...

His armor in all those promos threw me off the scent. But then again, the way he wore it backside front on one occasion should have been a clue as to him faking it lol.

Originally Posted by SkyKnight.Prime


LOL. Considering what I went through yesterday, I question how much they "love" Wizards. Every single monster in the Underdark map kept bypassing my fighters and going straight for Gale, often before he'd even done an action during the combat. He died about six times in two hours (with reloads after one egregiously bloody curb-stomping). The minotaurs did it, the Hook Horrors did it, and the damn Bulette did it TWICE. mad

After all that, I have absolutely NO desire to try making my own avatar wizard. The enemy AI seems to be primed to immediately kill the wizard when combat starts.

Well. There are plenty of people who can solo the entire game using Wizards (or any class but possibly Clerics I would assume). Check out Sin Tee on YouTube who make it look easy.

https://www.youtube.com/c/sintee106/videos

All I know is that if this imbalance is allowed to stand come launch, I will scrap my current class builds and instead play something like a Fighter 2/Evoker X (or straight Evoker as Dwarf/Gith with medium armor) spamming Magic Missiles (or spells with attack rolls which are now SUPER powerful with easy advantage and a staff averaging +5 attack on top of that) while in Full Plate armor and possibly shield (now I could use ALL attributes as dump stats except CON), with Shield Spell, Magic Mirror, etc, etc. Will be far more tanky than a Fighter while having superior crowd control, superior single target damage, superior burst damage, and superior area of effect damage to anyone. Maybe throw in a Rogue level to be a bit of a skill monkey as well. Add to this, full spellcasters power relative to other classes grow as they level up (somewhat depending upon how permissive the rest mechanics are).

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
It's weird, I don't know what was different in my game, then. I've seen a lot of people talk about this AI's single-minded pursuit of Gale, and it just wasn't the case in my game. I have no idea why.

I might be wrong and come across as unintentionally arrogant, but I believe the AI pretty heavily prioritizes low AC targets and you can be sure a lot of people who complain instead should use that time to "git gud" and for instance start using Mage Armor. That said, some encounters are hard (at least w/o metagaming knowledge or scouting ahead/planning) and will squish anyone.


Last edited by Seraphael; 03/11/20 10:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Agrippa
Stacking thieving potions and stealing from merchants was probably one of the most common exploits of the original games


You could only steal from certain merchants, though. In BG3 you can steal absolutely everything. If you go invisible first, the NPC doesn't even react when you fail. The game's economy is a complete joke, but they have time to fix that in EA. If they're keeping it so that you can steal from everyone, you should probably be limited to one item per NPC. There won't be a sensible economy as long as you can steal the entire inventory of every merchant.

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Originally Posted by flick40
Did anyone stop to think that some of these items were placed here to test? This isn't the final game, some people need to stop acting like this is the final cut.



Some people need to stop acting like feedback is an attack on the game. Stop being hysterically defensive, BG3 isn't your child. Your job is not to defend the game from criticism.

Last edited by Clawfoot; 03/11/20 10:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Clawfoot
Originally Posted by Agrippa
Stacking thieving potions and stealing from merchants was probably one of the most common exploits of the original games


You could only steal from certain merchants, though. In BG3 you can steal absolutely everything. If you go invisible first, the NPC doesn't even react when you fail. The game's economy is a complete joke, but they have time to fix that in EA. If they're keeping it so that you can steal from everyone, you should probably be limited to one item per NPC. There won't be a sensible economy as long as you can steal the entire inventory of every merchant.



I think they just need to make stealing from merchants, in particular, much harder. Of course, I still ended up with vast treasure even without stealing from merchants...

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Making it "harder" doesn't fix anything. In games like these, players will figure out a way to do anything that's technically possible. Adding some artificial layer of difficulty to things like stealing just creates a situation like the one in BG2, where new players are tricked into thinking they can steal from shops because the button is there, then they wonder why it fails 100% of the time, while experienced players know that it simply requires 250 in pickpocket to effortlessly plunder everything that can be stolen. It's not suitable game design for 2020. In a single-player game with savescumming, making something "harder" fixes nothing whatsoever. Might as well have a thing that goes "if you can solve this math equation, you do double damage from now on."

Why does economy matter in a single player game? Because RPGs survive in the long term via people discussing the game, strategizing, discussing the merits of this and that approach, reading and writing guides. That requires a relative uniformity across gameplay experiences. Otherwise you get discussions like this:

"Why is class X so bad?"
"It's not bad, you're bad, all you need is item 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5."
"But those cost a combined 6 million gold and I made 1.5 mil in my entire playthrough."
"What, you didn't steal everything from every merchant?"
"No, was I supposed to do that?"
"Well, that class only works if you do that. If you don't like doing that, restart with a different class."

"Why is this game so easy?!"
"It's not easy, I'm having a super hard time!"
"No, the game is definitely too easy, this is a joke. I soloed it without armor on."
"Did you use hacks or something?"
"No, all I did was steal everything and make 500% more gold than the developers intended."
"Well, then how can you say the game is too easy?"
"Because the game let me do it without telling me it was wrong."

It's really important for games like these that players can discuss them from the same general premise. People are more than free to play the way they want, but the fundamental balance is necessary even in a single player game, otherwise it becomes impossible to share ideas and guides and experiences. If the game is only balanced when you deliberately choose not to do something that your party would benefit from doing, that's flawed design. For the same reason that there isn't a button at character creation that says "click to start with 20 in all stats," there shouldn't be some trick that lets you undermine the game's intended economy. That should be something you need to deliberately cheat to do, not something you have to opt out of in order to avoid.

When an unmodded, unhacked game offers options that, when taken, ruin the game's intended balance, the design is wrong. Making it more difficult to carry out does not fix anything, it simply makes the game more annoying to play. Players will break the balance with cheats if they want to. Don't make it something they have to choose not to do. Make it something they have to choose to do. To many players, one of the most interesting aspects of RPGs is figuring out how to optimize and make your party as strong as possible within the rules of the game. That means those rules have to be reasonable. Don't make it trickier to break the game's economy, make it something that simply isn't part of the normal gameplay experience at all.

Last edited by Clawfoot; 04/11/20 07:15 AM.
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What about just making merchant NPCs un-pickpocketable? They're just too careful and wary with their stuff to let anyone steal it. You could still pickpocket all the normal NPCs, just not the merchants.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael

I might be wrong and come across as unintentionally arrogant, but I believe the AI pretty heavily prioritizes low AC targets and you can be sure a lot of people who complain instead should use that time to "git gud" and for instance start using Mage Armor. That said, some encounters are hard (at least w/o metagaming knowledge or scouting ahead/planning) and will squish anyone.



I hope the AI is considerably improved by the time the final game launches. It seems pretty half-baked so far. Ideally, different types of creatures should behave differently. I don't know if that's too big of an ask.

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Bumping 'cause we still got cats saying there's not ENOUGH loot in the game right now.

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Oh there is way too much loot. Though, I think it could be sorted by doing something with the inventory system. I don't think there needs to be two separate views for the expanded inventory and character inventories, rather keep the character doll and inventory pane and use tabs to keep item categories separate.

Maybe less inventory slots but more balanced loot? I feel sometimes like my character is carrying far more than is reasonable even before hitting encumbrance. (Four or five oil barrels? x))

I don't know what other players are like, but I pick up almost everything, and then when I look at my inventory it's a chore to mouse over everything and then a completely separate menu just to see what something does.

Junk/Non-Quests Misc Items should be kept separate and we need a 'sell all junk button'. So if players do choose to pick up everything for some extra cash it's not such a pain.

There is a small yet noticeable delay between picking up an item and moving it to another slot or vendor slot.

Does anyone know if the UI scale can be increased without reducing the resolution? My eyesight is okay, but at the highest resolution the icons for items/spells etc. are -just- a bit too small that it becomes uncomfortable to look at, I'm sure other people will have the same issue. It's especially a problem when you need to go searching for something in your bags.

Also, alt-clicking can be a curse, it's good to highlight stuff you can't see but, often times I want to highlight a box or a chest that for whatever reason is obscured and end up picking up the object instead of opening it.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind at all if -less- objects were pick-upable. Maybe it's just me, but a big treasure chest somehow feels -less- valuable if you are able to grab the whole thing and run off. I do also realize this comes from years of playing CRPGs and not being able to do that that it seems weird that I can. smile

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I say no there isnt... i dislike having to collect/pick up every spoon, glass and plate to be able to afford gear... im still pretty diligent though and have found i could generally get the +1 gear, potions etc with only a few thousand left over in prep for the next level gear we will be seeing... not everyone likes to grind every copper out of every environment... currently seems reasonable to this gamer who falls somewhere right between casual and power play styles...

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Originally Posted by Dee_MogII

I don't know what other players are like, but I pick up almost everything, and then when I look at my inventory it's a chore to mouse over everything and then a completely separate menu just to see what something does.




Exactly! It gets so cluttered up, so quickly.

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Originally Posted by Llev
I say no there isnt... i dislike having to collect/pick up every spoon, glass and plate to be able to afford gear... im still pretty diligent though and have found i could generally get the +1 gear, potions etc with only a few thousand left over in prep for the next level gear we will be seeing... not everyone likes to grind every copper out of every environment... currently seems reasonable to this gamer who falls somewhere right between casual and power play styles...



That's reasonable, of course players shouldn't have to scrape the bottom of every barrel. Most people don't want to search everywhere like a maniac. But even so, there is still a LOT of stuff out there. So much. I can't really imagine the degree of rushing through someone must be doing if they have actual money problems in this game.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
What do you all think? Is our DM (Larian) being a bit too generous? Or am I just crazy?

You're probably somewhat crazy. But I agree : the game, at the moment, is way too generous. Magic items need to feel special ... magic. (BG1 had a nice curve on this. By the end, everyone had a +1 or +2 weapon, but it took some time to get there. Though I don't want mention BG1 too much, for fearing of sounding like a fanboy, it's just ... some things were actually done well. Not all, but some were.)

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
My next run I'm gonna try to do in half the time of this one, and NOT search the nooks and crannies, and NOT loot most of the containers, and then see how much stuff I have at the end. I gotta do it so I can make the comparison, for science.

I believe this will be valuable and interesting.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
They set a version of the game before us, and said "tell us what you think of this". We're just doing that.

Exactly my approach to feedback. Although ... I'm a bit disappointed by Larian's lack of communication. On the one hand, if this was a board game designer gathering feedback from 4 players, I'd certainly and strongly say that the players must not be told what the designer wants to observe. Otherwise this will bias their play. But here they have hundreds or thousands of playtesters. I wish they could announce the things that are planned for later/the very end, the things that upcoming on their roadmap, and the problems they're already aware of (from internal testing or feedback received since the beginning of EA). This way, the feedback would focus more on what has value, and less on what Larian is planning to remove/change/revise anyway. Anyway, without guidelines, we cannot assume that this or that is certain to change.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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Originally Posted by Drath Malorn

You're probably somewhat crazy.



More than somewhat, friend. More than somewhat.


As for communication and roadmaps and suchlike, I think it's likely that Larian is just working on a ton of different stuff, trying to figure out how to implement things, testing things to make sure they work, fixing the things that the other things broke, and they don't really KNOW what's going to be done, when, and what's going to ultimately work for the game. If they say "we're doing THIS" then everyone will hold them to it until the end of time and the internet will weep rivers of blood amidst cries of "LARIAN R LIARZ" if they change one iota from whatever they said they were intending (at one ephemeral point in an ever-shifting process of enormous complexity).

Last edited by Firesnakearies; 04/12/20 07:39 AM.
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I understand the view of some folks that there is too much loot in the game.

However, depending on your play style, that does not necessarily hold true. In my game, I'm currently working my way through Goblinland (patent pending). I've dealt with the crash site, initial tomb, "druidica" (patent registered in Goblinland, for what it is worth) and assorted town areas. Yet, while I'm running level 4 characters, I have maybe 3 or 4 magic items ( most of which are unusable due to the downsides), and have yet to buy a single magic item from vendors. As my "character" is not a thief, he has had no reason to steal anything from vendors and such. Really can't compare the loot level to folks running around robbing every item and every coin they can get their hands on. I would be far happier picking up fewer "priceless" items, and having the ones I pick up actually worth comparable "priceless" amounts than pick up a zillion priceless items each worth one gold. Toss in that rare but valuable painting or statue that sells for little to nothing at your average shop, but sells for a boatload of coin if saved for sale in that antique dealer in Baldurs Gate. Toss out rumors of a valuable piece of artwork, that wealthy noble in BG is seeking, that can be sold to him for a huge chunk of coin (and maybe toss in some nice thieves that will try and waylay me on the way to delivering it once I recover it.

There are plenty of ways to create innovative ways to obtain and sell unique, non-magic, items involving side quests, rumors, gossip and private collections. Package them in with other rationales for chasing after them, so thieves and non-thives might all have a reason to chase them down.

Split up that merchants inventory - some items should be on his person for pickpocketing, higher value items should be locked up, in a manner that those with the inclination can try and sneak past guards, disarm traps and pick the locks to get them - if they are able. Being caught will tick off the merchant and his guards, and have repercussions, but beggars, other lowlife, the average joe schmoe in a large town or city, shouldn't care one way or another, and the City down river should have no clue what you did. If you manage to get clear without being arrested/killed, the furor should die down within days. The idea that a week later, everyone in town (including guards that never saw you) will instantly recognize makes little sense in any large population area.

And yeah - merchants should carry those drool-worthy, end game type items at a price you can only dream of until you are at fairly high levels, or as a rare reward for some epic mission on their behalf (rescue your wife and kids from the evil blackmailer? Sure, that might be worth a low/mid level item from my shop, or a steep discount on that item).

Give me a thief to play, and I might be robbing merchants blind often. Give me a paladin, ranger or cleric and I'm not picking pockets and rifling shops (of course, "evil variants of the above might resort to coercion, blackmail, forgery, and other forms of skullduggery, but a cleric is more likely to threaten to drop a nasty curse on a merchant to get what they want than simply pick a pocket).

But spare me the changing inventories !! Nothing so bad as saving that gold for weeks to buy "magic item x" only to find it's gone from the shop!

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Originally Posted by Anfindel
But spare me the changing inventories !! Nothing so bad as saving that gold for weeks to buy "magic item x" only to find it's gone from the shop!



Some good ideas in your post, I like it. The part I quoted, I especially agree with. I really dislike it when that happens!

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I did not read everything above but:
- It is normal for every RPG I know that you swim in money sooner than later.
BG1+2 had the advantage that shops have some good unique and expansive items so you spend some time gathering money to get all of them.
In BG3 you can get almost everything at once and I agree that the huge amount of "junk items" is part of the problem.

- They should quit those DOS1+2 mechanics:
+ you give stuff for free to merchants to get better prizes.
+ killing the merchant will give you EVERYTHING you have ever sold him

instead they might add
+ maybe bring back DOS2 rule that you can steal only once from each NPC (wait a sec, I really suggest adding DOS stuff in a DnD game ouch )
+ Prizes should not depend on who talks to the merchant. Switching items between characters before selling is just annoying. so maybe
- All chars pay the same prize. The prize should be fixed. Maybe they change prizes if you do quests for them or how much their faction likes you
- If the merchant hates one of your party members you have to keep them in camp to trade with them

Edit: crap, the text ignores spaces before the text.
So you cannot make a table where one point has several sub points

Last edited by Madscientist; 06/12/20 07:35 PM.

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Can Gale actually tote that many barrels around?


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Originally Posted by Capt.Wells
Can Gale actually tote that many barrels around?



Nah, of course not. He can't move an inch.

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