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#733957 13/11/20 11:28 PM
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I just wanted to add this in (if no one else has done this already, if they have I apologise)
Maybe kinda dumb but with many negative threads I feel like we should have a chill one!

This might be a stretch but I feel like Sebille and Astarion are similar

Just a couple of things I've noticed

One being
[/spoiler]with the whole "master" situation and being abused and controlled if they are in the same area[spoiler]


them both being cynical which is understandable!

They're both rogues and have an obsession with knives.

I dunno I'm just kinda bored and wanted to add this in because why not.

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each company has its tropes. Bioware had a very long tradition of a whining sidekick (Anoman->Carth->Kaiden->Alistair), and Fire emblem practically made tropes part of the gameplay (for example, in each game you have a Jagen kind character which is usually an old and experienced guy who is very strong gameplay-wise but becomes weaker later when the other characters catch up).
It's not necessarily bad if you know how to play with fans' expectations. Another Japanese example - each Final Fantasy game has a character named "Cid" and in most cases, he is a smart ass supporting character with a thing for machines. Final Fantasy XII used the same trope, but this time made him one of the villains of that game, which is a nice twist


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Ooooh yeah definitely!
I'm certainly not saying it's a bad thing at all I should've stated I quite like the similarities! I just adored Sebille and the other DOS2 characters! So it's nice to have that familiarity laugh

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But this games' "Sebille" is way less enticing and way less forgivable.

With exception to 1 companion in DOS2; they were all neutrals to a degree, with Lohse edging on good.

With BG3 - if Astarion is this games version of Sebille (Even an Elf to boot, go figure?) there's not even a smidge of good. Plus he's undead. Big no-no's in DnD universe. If he has a redemption option, it's certainly packed in the late game.

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You do raise some good points, but I felt Sebille in act 1 was the same, evil, unforgivable etc.
[/spoiler] the lady almost killed my dumb jester, holding a her at knife point, a lot like Astarions encounter again (which was fun) [spoiler]


I feel like there is a smidge if good in lil ol elfy boi, without too many spoilers

[/spoiler]during the party he seemed quite content with playing hero. And again like Sebille I feel will probably have some sort of redemption arc or if not a more in depth look at his character, I have a feeling we will have to deal with his oh so spooky boss vampire boy. [spoiler]


I feel we still dont have a lot of insight to go on in the companions in act 1 anyway since they're all feeling the doom and gloom of mr baby frog.

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Originally Posted by Lethan
But this games' "Sebille" is way less enticing and way less forgivable.


I agree with the second part, but not the first. I find Astarion much more attractive and entertaining, plus a bit less trigger happy with that knife of his; on the other hand he seems to be much more firmly in the chaotic evil camp, with a sprinkling of chaotic stupid. I mostly ignored Sebille and Astarion may end up sharing the same fate if there's no way to nudge him toward a better path.

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Shadowheart feels a lot more like the Sebille of this game, to be honest. Right down to the fact that if you're playing the wrong race (Gith or Lizard respectively) there is a high chance you'll end up killing her upon your first meeting.

They're both cagey about their pasts and in service to some dark power they don't want to talk about. They both even have
a loss of memories of who they are supposed to be
as a plot point. And they're both elven and snarky.

Astarion has little in common with Sebille aside from general rogue traits.

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Originally Posted by Abits
each company has its tropes. Bioware had a very long tradition of a whining sidekick (Anoman->Carth->Kaiden->Alistair), and Fire emblem practically made tropes part of the gameplay (for example, in each game you have a Jagen kind character which is usually an old and experienced guy who is very strong gameplay-wise but becomes weaker later when the other characters catch up).
It's not necessarily bad if you know how to play with fans' expectations. Another Japanese example - each Final Fantasy game has a character named "Cid" and in most cases, he is a smart ass supporting character with a thing for machines. Final Fantasy XII used the same trope, but this time made him one of the villains of that game, which is a nice twist


How dare you lump Alistair in with the rest of those. Alistair was actually likeable.

Plus. Swooping is.... bad...

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No, Astarion is certainly enticing and requires neither forgiveness nor redemption. It's ok if you're not into LE/NE/CE characters, you don't have to like them. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist or that they must be "redeemable."

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Originally Posted by Xarico
No, Astarion is certainly enticing and requires neither forgiveness nor redemption. It's ok if you're not into LE/NE/CE characters, you don't have to like them. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist or that they must be "redeemable."

Yeah Astarion is unapolagetically chaotic and power-hungry which is understandable.

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I feel like Astarion kinda has his reasons to be on his slightly chaotic evil path

After all
[/spoiler]he is a 200 year old vampire who probably went through a lot of torture from cazador during that time[spoiler]


I mean if anyone went through that I think becoming that cynical and "evil" is an understandable choice.

It's easy to see his flaws but again it's still act 1 and EA he could end up becoming an entirely different person during the adventure and surprise us, (or stay an asshole which will be funny but also kinda sad)

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I almost take offense to this comparison, because the similarities end with 'stabby elves with evil former masters'.

I say this as someone who genuinely likes Astarion and has him in my party constantly.

Even at her darkest, Sebille never scratches the surface of how genuinely just....morally bankrupt Astarion is. Every person Sebille kills was in some way involved in what happened to her, being captured, sold, stripped of her dignity- sure maybe the role was minor, but even the most minor role involved searing a mind control scar onto her face to make her a living weapon. When Sebille lashes out at you, she generally recants her behavior- she understands she's traumatized, shattered by the life she has been forced to live. While she's cold, calculating, she is hardly ever cruel, she possesses empathy and compassion that Astarion, from what we've seen of him currently, lacks.

Astarion is willing to kill anyone, for any reason, killing is fun for him- he relishes in rampant slaughter, is manipulative towards you from the moment you meet him, and generally tries to play you like a fiddle for his own ends. I have no doubt Cazador is an evil bastard, and that Astarion's main desire is offing him so he can be free- but unlike Sebille, he doesn't really have a structured plan, nor does he particularly care how many innocents get caught in the crossfire. He is rather apathetic towards slavery(talking to him in the miconid colony yields some interesting dialogue), despite being essentially a slave himself- and his actions range from petty, strange, to downright hypocritical. He seems like more of a homicidal teenager let loose than a former slave on a bloody quest for revenge.

I know we haven't seen much of Astarion and we've had an entire game to get to know Sebille, but if I were to compare Astarion to anyone from DOS2, it would be The Red Prince.

I, initially, didn't care for The Red Prince, he was snobby, self interested, refused to believe any of my good actions were for the actual sake of good, and despite me agreeing to help him take down a shadowy master orchestrating his downfall, took a while to warm up to me and be upfront with his whole story. Sound familiar?

Red's story sees him grow from a pompous, pessimistic blood monger into an introspective, enlightened ruler who cites his friendship with the PC being one of the greatest values in his life. Sure, he's still rather out of touch with...the normal world, but he grows a great deal and stands by your side staunchly while godly power is waved in his face.

Like I said we don't know nearly as much about Astarion and co. as we do about Red and Sebille, but I feel Astarion's plot formula mirrors Red's more closely. Both coming from places of looking down upon others and seeing themselves as 'greater' despite essentially being in the same mud pool as us, as well as a general apathetic view towards the lives and struggles of others.

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Again you raise many good points! I actually agree with what you've stated but only partly, saying that Astarion (unless I have missed something and if I have please let me know)
Saying he is willing to kill for any reason and be manipulative is maybe going overboard.

[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


But if he was really a heartless killer youd probably see more dead bodies or youd see either yourself or your companions dead along the road.

At the moment I think right now hes just doing what it takes to survive which is what many including your own character is doing.

I agree definitely with the red prince similarities, both are definitely pompous and selfish

Last edited by A Clown; 14/11/20 08:41 AM.
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The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.

As for the 'dead bodies laying about'- Astarion knows the only way he's getting through this is with your help. He's a troublemaker, but he's crafty. He realizes that he wouldn't stand a chance on his own, against entire groups of people who might very well want to stake him just for being a vampire, murder not withstanding. He's pleased as punch, drinking blood from a wine glass and reminiscing at the Goblin Party after slaughtering the druids and tieflings. He seems infinitely happier than at the tiefling party, after slaughtering a gaggle of innocents, as opposed to Shadowheart, who is getting herself as drunk as she can to try to forget about what she just took part in.

Astarion behaves himself as far as he knows will satisfy the group, but he relishes in violence, whether it be inflicted upon enemies or innocents.

I'm not saying this to be hard on him, even though from what I've gathered he was a shit before being made a vampire, 200 years as a slave to a demonic ass like Cazador probably dropped his moral compass down a well.

I'm not even saying you're wrong in your belief that Astarion might be more moral than I believe- Astarion is playing us, to some degree. Like I said he knows we are his surest way to survival, and he's trying to make sure he gets out of this whole situation on top.

The only way we'll know anything for sure is once the full game comes out and that's at least a year away.

Until then I'm just gonna psychoanalyze this posh elf bloodsucker until I go insane.

(Also I almost wanted to compare him to Fane but Fane's character arc was less 'growing from uppity and malicious into thoughtful and understanding' to 'local father tries to make up with his 30 year old daughter after leaving for cigarettes the day she was born and never coming back'.)

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@Gamblerr;;
I wish I could just like a post. Fully agree on your view of Sebille vs. Astarion in Early Access.
Astarion and Red Prince almost feel like they are written by the same writter? But I wasn't able to find who actually wrote either.

To be honest ever since getting Astarion for the first time I didn't fully trust the character's intentions and I don't think I do even now, after multiple playthroughs with him in the party.
I'd expect him to be at least a bit more smart, calculating, unless he is calculating something else entirely...
Maybe he just has perma loose screws from 200 years of slavery. That's okay, some of my planned characters will still get along with him!

I need to know what the heck the purpose of the 'poem' on his back is.


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To be honest when you put it like that I absolutely cannot disagree, you raise some really good points there,

it's making me want to play the game again and re-analyse!

I do have a little theory that depending on the path you go on (whether its "evil" or "good") it might have an effect on your companions morality, (if they dont leave you for being a dooshbag or too evil, which to be fair is the most fun play through) but that might play into the companions arc.

But with Astarion have a few loose screws does make sense, that boy needs therapy. (They all do)

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Originally Posted by Gamblerr
I almost take offense to this comparison, because the similarities end with 'stabby elves with evil former masters'.

I say this as someone who genuinely likes Astarion and has him in my party constantly.

Even at her darkest, Sebille never scratches the surface of how genuinely just....morally bankrupt Astarion is. Every person Sebille kills was in some way involved in what happened to her, being captured, sold, stripped of her dignity- sure maybe the role was minor, but even the most minor role involved searing a mind control scar onto her face to make her a living weapon. When Sebille lashes out at you, she generally recants her behavior- she understands she's traumatized, shattered by the life she has been forced to live. While she's cold, calculating, she is hardly ever cruel, she possesses empathy and compassion that Astarion, from what we've seen of him currently, lacks.

Astarion is willing to kill anyone, for any reason, killing is fun for him- he relishes in rampant slaughter, is manipulative towards you from the moment you meet him, and generally tries to play you like a fiddle for his own ends. I have no doubt Cazador is an evil bastard, and that Astarion's main desire is offing him so he can be free- but unlike Sebille, he doesn't really have a structured plan, nor does he particularly care how many innocents get caught in the crossfire. He is rather apathetic towards slavery(talking to him in the miconid colony yields some interesting dialogue), despite being essentially a slave himself- and his actions range from petty, strange, to downright hypocritical. He seems like more of a homicidal teenager let loose than a former slave on a bloody quest for revenge.

I know we haven't seen much of Astarion and we've had an entire game to get to know Sebille, but if I were to compare Astarion to anyone from DOS2, it would be The Red Prince.

I, initially, didn't care for The Red Prince, he was snobby, self interested, refused to believe any of my good actions were for the actual sake of good, and despite me agreeing to help him take down a shadowy master orchestrating his downfall, took a while to warm up to me and be upfront with his whole story. Sound familiar?

Red's story sees him grow from a pompous, pessimistic blood monger into an introspective, enlightened ruler who cites his friendship with the PC being one of the greatest values in his life. Sure, he's still rather out of touch with...the normal world, but he grows a great deal and stands by your side staunchly while godly power is waved in his face.

Like I said we don't know nearly as much about Astarion and co. as we do about Red and Sebille, but I feel Astarion's plot formula mirrors Red's more closely. Both coming from places of looking down upon others and seeing themselves as 'greater' despite essentially being in the same mud pool as us, as well as a general apathetic view towards the lives and struggles of others.


I agree with this post wholeheartedly.

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Originally Posted by Gamblerr
The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.


Without going into too many datamined spoilers, it's not moral backbone, it's all about Cazador's control and breaking free. If he promises to feed only on your enemies, or only on animals, he seems to keep that promise, but I doubt he'd be limiting himself on his own beyond, "Don't piss off people with pitchforks!"

I'm on board with the Red Prince comparisons, but if Astarion's romance also ends with us becoming his sidepiece, I may turn him over to the Gur. oops

Last edited by Tarlonniel; 14/11/20 05:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Gamblerr
The animal bit, I'm torn about- on one hand, it could be an actual moral backbone on his part, or it might be the residual fear of Cazador. Cazador never allowed Astarion to drink from humans, only rats, and in some dialogue it's implied that he feared that Cazador's old orders still had sway over him.


Without going into too many datamined spoilers, it's not moral backbone, it's all about Cazador's control and breaking free. If he promises to feed only on your enemies, or only on animals, he seems to keep that promise, but I doubt he'd be limiting himself on his own beyond, "Don't piss off people with pitchforks!"

I'm on board with the Red Prince comparisons, but if Astarion's romance also ends with us becoming his sidepiece, I may turn him over to the Gur. oops


The more I think about it the more he seems to lean more into the Red prince but angry elf,

I'm hoping with his romance route he becomes more selfless, or if not just, yeah, send him to the Gur or just put him out of his misery. I would feel less bad about killing him then sending him back to Cazador.

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Originally Posted by A Clown
[/spoiler] I'm just referring to the time you first find out hes a vampire and he states that he only drinks animal blood, I dont know if he was lying or something, [spoiler]


He is not lying about an animal bit, but he is about the reasons behind it. Which you can call him out on if you had DT activated.
He is making it seem as if he is feeding on animals by choice because he is not "a monster" or doesn't want to be one. In truth, he was forced to do it by his master, and him trying to feed on you is him testing out how "free" is he from his master now.

Also, since we are on topic in regards to Astarion. I recall an article that mentioned a very interesting bit about Astarion's life prior to vampirsim.
Apparently he was a disgraced nobleman who became a magistrate as just a cover. In reality he was smuggling prisoners to vampires. After he became "too corrupt" even for vampires, vampires ended up making a scheme with Cazador to take him down. Hence how he ended up enslaved by him.

Now, I'm not sure if this backstory still stands for Astarion, or was it changed by now. However, if we do follow this, then in all honesty he is the last person to talk about the importance of being allowed to chose.
Since he was basically a glorified slaver himself before his downfall.
If this is still meant to be his backstory prior to Cazador, that is.

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