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I love how this thread has evolved from joke post to serious philosophical discussion about alignments back to jokes, good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Topper
Have none of you read Snuff by Terry Pratchett!!!! smile And yes, that image is cute. Gobbo's are not cute. Are they?? I dont know any more.


People likely have read it yet tend to be rather quiet about it. Too much poo, snot and toenails. But, yeah it catches the essence of what we are discussing here. laugh

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I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Topper
Have none of you read Snuff by Terry Pratchett!!!! smile And yes, that image is cute. Gobbo's are not cute. Are they?? I dont know any more.


People likely have read it yet tend to be rather quiet about it. Too much poo, snot and toenails. But, yeah it catches the essence of what we are discussing here. laugh

If I find a piano in one of the Goblin camps, I shall be highly suspicious.

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And yet, they have ...poetry..... One step away from stringing words into song.

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Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

Steam and Unseen Academicals were good, but a slight shift of gear. They were evidently books that Pterry felt the need to write due to his own interest in the subjects, but you could easily skip them and not miss out on the wider Discworld Lore.

As for rehabilitation of fantasy monsters; yes, I think it is a dangerous slope to start on. If you have 'humanised' your main evil race, then your next Evil needs to be demonstrably worse. I prefer to give my campaign monsters good old-fashioned human prejudices and flaws, without making them human. In my GURPS Fantasy campaign, you can try to negotiate with goblins but they will likely just laugh and eat you - they see all other living things as food. Orcs are more 'civilised' and will trade, but are highly clannish and xenophobic and will start a fight at a moment's notice with the slightest excuse.

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Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.



It doesn't have to be about cutifying them, just provide more context for why certain races are the way they are. Think about goblins specifically, their society is based entirely on survival. They have to be sneaky and cunning to not get eaten or smashed by everyone else. In comparison with the average humanoid nation goblins are at a massive disadvantage, hence why they'll group up with other monsters or evil leaning sorts for protection.

The goblins in BG3 aren't mindless killers, at several points in the game they have the opportunity to attack you but go for threats first instead, they will fight if they have to but generally seem to want to avoid it if they can.

They aren't good, but I would hesitate to call them totally evil either. I mean, Wyll for example tries to be pretty charming, but when the goblins come up he goes full on genocide mode. xD Truly man is the real monster. x)

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

Steam and Unseen Academicals were good, but a slight shift of gear. They were evidently books that Pterry felt the need to write due to his own interest in the subjects, but you could easily skip them and not miss out on the wider Discworld Lore.

As for rehabilitation of fantasy monsters; yes, I think it is a dangerous slope to start on. If you have 'humanised' your main evil race, then your next Evil needs to be demonstrably worse. I prefer to give my campaign monsters good old-fashioned human prejudices and flaws, without making them human. In my GURPS Fantasy campaign, you can try to negotiate with goblins but they will likely just laugh and eat you - they see all other living things as food. Orcs are more 'civilised' and will trade, but are highly clannish and xenophobic and will start a fight at a moment's notice with the slightest excuse.


Well, you coul argue the major plot point of the last books was the whole humanization of orcs and goblins thing. I was not a fan, but I got the gist of it, and I think it is worth noting. In the end, how do you find out about others if you do not ask nor try to understand?

There is this secluded tribe on the Andaman islands, just off the coast of India, that will attack anyone that comes close to them. They have been left alone for decades until two years ago an American got killed trying to talk to them about god. They are hostile on sight. Some tribes in South America are similar as well and might raid lumbercamps even. Japanese Holdouts after WWII also either lived isolatory and secluded or showed aggressive behaviour years after the war was over. Now obviously the right thing is not to annihilate these tribes and people, but to either leave them be or talk to them so one can come to some form of understanding. I do know that these comparisons are a bit shaky, but it begs the question if anyone ever saw it from the POV of the goblins or tried to understand what they are all about.

This rehabilitation happens all the time, though in many series and in real life. Former adversaries become neutral, become new allies, even if a mutual understanding was outrageous a couple of years ago. Again, 100 years in the past, the Bhaalspawn had a Goblin companion. Drow seem to have little issues walking above ground, except some small remarks and so forth. So it is nothing out of the ordinary to at least question their motives, yet there isn't really anyone asking these questions, beside Volo maybe.

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Very fine points all. Do we need bad guys? Do we need something to kill???? Thats what it comes down to yeah? If we look for and find good, reason, purpose in everything, dont we essentially find......God? I'm far from religious but is that not the benchmark for morality?

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Originally Posted by Finnius
1. Since when did pixels on a screen become "real"?

2. What is the definition of "role-playing"?

3. If I accidentally or purposely have my character walk into a bonfire...should that character be arrested for attempted suicide? Should I, as the directing party, immediately be arrested for attempted murder?

This thread is funny...and ridiculous. Nobody is "killing" anyone.

I understand about immersion into a fiction...sure...but when you start applying our Earth societal morals and systems of belief onto a fantasy setting that obviously does not behave or share the same ruleset (as the above poster said)...then YOU are breaking the role-playing.

Its a morale thing.. has nothing to do with pixels, humans are either good or evil, you wont change that.

Originally Posted by Verte
If not the 'true soul' business those gobbos would probably kill our little party of adventurers. And then kick Laezel's body making her nose even more flat. It is really simple choice for me.

Which is understandable really, if i met our companions in real life i'd kill them all on the spot as well.. and i'd be doing the world a justice, way more than killing some poor goblins.. Our companions are the most evil scum you'd ever meet, make a few goblins seem down right pleasant.

Last edited by DanteYoda; 16/11/20 05:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Topper
People take this game way to seriously smile I want my fantasy detached from reality. I want stuff that offends people and makes them realise this genre of entertainment is probably not for them. Its fantasy, its not real..... Not everything in life has to represent a view or attitude or position in real life.


Sigh. You're missing the point.

It's not about "realism". It's about "immersion". Two very different things. Just because it't not real doesn't mean you can just go "Add anything in". It has to make sense.

A unircorn shitting muffins in Borderlands makes sense because that's the game it is.

But do that here... Well, if it's very cleverly done, maybe. But you know what I mean.

Fantasy exists BECAUSE of reality. Because people suffered and got traumatised and managed to turn those bad situations around into fun and games. But it's not always fun and games. So why should fantasy be any different?

The reason you don't want real merged with fantasy is because of people in REAL life having weak stomachs. But maybe that's exactly why it should be mixed. It's called oppression. We want our fun stuff and that should be fun as far as "real" is concerned.

Here's the thing. Real life people with weak stomachs go out of their way to make sure it's NOT fine. This makes it impossible to separate the two at times. You have to take sales figures into account. What "most people tend to enjoy and get put off by". And then you got the law poking it's ugly nose into your business. "This is fine. That's fine. I decide for you what should be enjoyed."

Personally I say "I got an iron stomach." I make more fun out of dark events in online roleplay (and real life for that matter. Both). It's given me a very good imagination.

Last edited by Taramafor; 16/11/20 12:08 PM.
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Goblins? Kobolds? Gnomes? ; )


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
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