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Vhaldez #734296 14/11/20 06:41 PM
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Halsin has something bigger to take care of at the moment. He has the shadow curse situation to solve that is an unnatural plague and represent what the druids attempt to avoid in the first place he also feel responsable for this so he is attempting to rettify his mistakes. An outsider could bring the druid back on a more tollerant way an outsider would be the perfect choice because he could have the the perspective necessary to solve the issue. Since Halsin was kidnapped nobody named an archdruid. Khaga probably was named by consensus. But usually is an Archdruid that names an Archdruids the decision is never under question as long the new Archdruid keep to mantain balance in a good or a bad way.

N7Greenfire #734329 14/11/20 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


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Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.

Vhaldez #734331 14/11/20 07:29 PM
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Surface R: Quit the personal attacks.

Surface R #734350 14/11/20 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


Quote
Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.



Dude did you even play the game? The initial vendor tells you they don't have the supplies, you can break into the store room and see the supplies are near empty...

You have no food an army advancing on you and your leader is MIA what other option did she have?

Really feels like you didnt even play

Last edited by N7Greenfire; 14/11/20 07:56 PM.
Surface R #734359 14/11/20 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


Quote
Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.



They are yes. But usually Goblins don't threat Druidic circles why would they? Usually Druid don't care about the presence of goblin. They are now under threat and they blame the opening to the outsiders ((not all of them)) as a main reason for it. In the end those adventurers got themself in a skirmish with the goblins and did lead them to the grove. The difference is those are not in fact simple goblins. They follow the Absolute and they have allies that normally would never have. All of this makes this goblins bold enough bold to raid villages. But before the Adventurer incident the Circle had no reason to believe the goblins were a threat this is also why they see the refugees with bad eyes. Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern. So is easy to see how the druids are considering this opening to the Refugees cause of trouble. Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs. Khaga may have her reasons but that dosn't change the fact she is a lot extremist in the druidic way even if somehow contain herself. A shadow druid would had simple attacked the Refugees directly and force them to leave or they would had simply exteminated them in order to keep the Circle safe and unnoticed. Is a chain of events that brought in that situation however Khaga while her motivation would be valid in this case is way more alligned to the violent part of the nature. The comments she makes if you have a drow character give more insight on how she act and thinks as she actually admires Drow.

To me the narration of the Groove is well made. Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be. If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.

Vhaldez #734362 14/11/20 08:06 PM
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The initial vendor doesnt tell you that at all. He tells you that he doesnt have much and then sells you food, healing potions, +1 weapons and gear. The camp is full of food in various containers. there is a second trader-smith that can sell you more, A cooking lady that gives you a broth - with more food right next to her on the table. And auntie Ethel.

I already addressed the store room, actual natural area of the grovve that includes a river, fact that druids can use their magic to grow food and help refugees to grow more. All that, you simply refused to read.
Just s you can make hilarious claims about me not even playing - while you continuously show you dont remember the very parts of dialogue you think support your ... ideas.

You again simply fail to acknowledge or consider that refugees dont want to stay in the grove, and the fact that the grove leadership is somehow simply not interested in forces attacking the grove and destroying the whole area around it.
While closing the grove will only achieve they remain in constant indefinite siege, completely surrounded - while not even knowing what is attacking them and what capabilities those forces have.
Which, according to you is the best course of action.


Originally Posted by Rieline


They are yes. But usually Goblins don't threat Druidic circles why would they? Usually Druid don't care about the presence of goblin. They are now under threat and they blame the opening to the outsiders ((not all of them)) as a main reason for it. In the end those adventurers got themself in a skirmish with the goblins and did lead them to the grove. The difference is those are not in fact simple goblins. They follow the Absolute and they have allies that normally would never have. All of this makes this goblins bold enough bold to raid villages. But before the Adventurer incident the Circle had no reason to believe the goblins were a threat this is also why they see the refugees with bad eyes. Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern. So is easy to see how the druids are considering this opening to the Refugees cause of trouble. Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs. Khaga may have her reasons but that dosn't change the fact she is a lot extremist in the druidic way even if somehow contain herself. A shadow druid would had simple attacked the Refugees directly and force them to leave or they would had simply exteminated them in order to keep the Circle safe and unnoticed. Is a chain of events that brought in that situation however Khaga while her motivation would be valid in this case is way more alligned to the violent part of the nature. The comments she makes if you have a drow character give more insight on how she act and thinks as she actually admires Drow.

To me the narration of the Groove is well made. Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be. If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.


Its not the usual situation, thats why.

They are now under threat - yes - and they may initially blame the outsiders - thats fine too. It can happen. But it cannot just remain like that unless they are all insane and deranged. Because there is plenty of evidence against and the player should be able to use that to change such nonsensical opinions. Especially because its not just goblins - at all. Yet we never even get a chance to mention it.

The problem is that druids apparently have no interest for any of the nature or living beings outside of the grove getting destroyed, despite being capable of using animals to keep an eye on things in that whole area - but they just didnt. Never occurred to anyone. So they simply missed all the other attacks and destruction - and increasing unbalance across that whole area, that you say is so very important to druids. They also missed the attack on their own Archdruid... same as you simply dont remember that happening. They even have a goblin prisoner happy to scream about the Absolute to anyone in vicinity - yet that simply doesnt matter anyway.

And there wasnt a single attack that we can see that happened because of the refugees. At all.

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Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern.

What does this even mean? What refugee monsters becoming more aggressive? Monsters in the region? No, obviously. Its not what actually happens in the game at all.
This horrible Druid script tells you so or makes you think thats what they think - but every single event that happens in the game is completely opposite to that.

You are literally delusional.


Quote
Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs.

Is their agenda to protect only the circle - nothing else?
How is that achieved by refusing to even think about the attacking force and locking the grove into permanent siege and indefinite encirclement - by forces they refuse to even consider, let alone know anything about?
How can they be sure the ritual will protect them against absolutely everything the enemies may attempt - while not knowing anything about that enemy and refusing to even think about it?

WHY is the player denied even the opportunity to point this out to anyone?

How many times must i repeat this? Are you people just incapable of actually understanding the simple arguments i make - instead of constantly tripping over the few points you misunderstand and cant get over?

Quote

Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be.

No, actually it works completely against the lore and basic common sense. Nothing to do with the RL - unless you think the most basic logic and common sense have nothing to do with Faerun, BG games, RPGs or fantasy in general.

Quote
If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.


Yeah... i know... the problem is that the player cannot do anything with any of that insight and things we discover.

Last edited by Surface R; 14/11/20 08:31 PM.
Vhaldez #734368 14/11/20 08:22 PM
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I also have a memory of the vendor telling me that they're running out of food. Not in the "what do you have to trade" dialogue option, but if you ask him about the situation between the druids and tieflings.

The food in the crates: eh I would separate this from the internal logic of the world. The food is in those crates because Larian put it there for the player, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the NPCs are aware of it. Also, "will run out of food" is not the same as "already out of food."

That said, it is incredibly silly that druids would run out of food. They can cast goodberry, feeding 10 people per day for the cost of a single sprig of mistletoe. They should also know how to live off the land. And, if they're running out of food now, how does it help them to "close themselves off from the world"? Won't they just run out of food even faster without the ability to forage/hunt??

Surface R #734370 14/11/20 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R
The initial vendor doesnt tell you that at all. He tells you that he doesnt have much and then sells you food, healing potions, +1 weapons and gear. The camp is full of food in various containers. there is a second trader-smith that can sell you more, A cooking lady that gives you a broth - with more food right next to her on the table. And auntie Ethel.

I already addressed the store room, actual natural area of the grovve that includes a river, fact that druids can use their magic to grow food and help refugees to grow more. All that, you simply refused to read.
Just s you can make hilarious claims about me not even playing - while you continuously show you dont remember the very parts of dialogue you think support your ... ideas.

You again simply fail to acknowledge or consider that refugees dont want to stay in the grove, and the fact that the grove leadership is somehow simply not interested in forces attacking the grove and destroying the whole area around it.
While closing the grove will only achieve they remain in constant indefinite siege, completely surrounded - while not even knowing what is attacking them and what capabilities those forces have.
Which, according to you is the best course of action.





Is not uncommon for Druid to act in this way. Consider the Ritual of Isolation is not jus simply conjuring a barrier druidic magic is absolutely different and way more intricate. This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot. Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment. And that is basically what concern the druids most. The over consuming of the place they have a circle in resources. If you notice around the camp there are improvvised home or structure made of wood those are not made by druid hand. The druids stay inside theyr circle in the ruins they have also room with beds. So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid. Druids dislike universally one thing. Civilization. They dislike to see trees cut down to make space to cities village or camps. Some druids learned to cohexist with this. In the case of Mielikki followers that may result less closed. Or Chauntea ones. They will be the ones helping with crops cultivation. But Silvanus is different. The cult of Silvanus is often very isolated and not much open to outsiders. Silvanus also known has Father Oak is not even a divinity good alligned to start with he is in fact a neutral God all Sylvanus followers want is Balance now this can go well or bad. There are many various individuals in the cult of Sylvanus a druidic Cyrcle of Silvanus followers can be composed even by evil or good druids as well most of them are neutral so they usually act on what they decide is better to the moment. If it was instead a Circle devoted to Mielikki or Chauntea probably the druids would had helped them gladly with the hope to teach them to respect balance.

Is not running out of food the problem. Is the deplection of the nautral resources around the circle because of the Refugees. Yes they can cast goodberries. But for a divine caster abusing of power is not something that is acceptable to do. They have those powers but is a good pratice to use them only if necessary.

"The church of Silvanus is spread everywhere across Faerun and is far stronger than many might think. Nevertheless, most outsiders view the church of Chauntea, as patrons of agriculture, as being favorably inclined towards the expansion of civilization, while the church of Silvanus is the implacable foe of those who would settle new lands. Neither impression is correct, yet the church of the Oak Father is often perceived as little different from those faiths that venerate the Deities of Fury."

Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."

So in the eyes of the Druis the arrival of the Refugees and the old Archdruid accepting them in was see like a disturbance of balance. They also say that since the Refugee arrivals creatures in the area turned way more hostile. While this is true or just a coincidence they have reasons to believe this Refugees must move away and quick. On the other hand after the goblin attacks Refugees can't simply move away as they are many and they would likely draw attention and get attacked in the way. So we have Khaga that wants the Refugees out. And the Refugees being stuck in the choice between a bad situation and another bad situation.

Also Khaga is more alligned with the Shadow Druids. And those are way more drastic in theyr manner to act.

Last edited by Rieline; 14/11/20 08:53 PM.
Vhaldez #734385 14/11/20 08:51 PM
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I edit in the reply to you previous post into the post above.

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This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot.


I understood you the first time. They have no idea when the situation will become less hot. In fact f Kagha geiousplan wors things will only become more hot. indefinitely. And they fail to even be interested in who the enemies are and what capabilities they have. This also - again for the fifteenth time - will result in destruction of the whole area around the grove, mass murders and destruction of nature. - i.e. destruction of balance. While putting the grove into a permanent siege and encirclement. With no option to affect that situation in any way but just wait until the enemy manages to figure out some way to get in and kill them all. This of course is something not available to player characters to point out.

Kagha on the other hand being a Shadowdruid - only not - apparently - according to you would kill refugees - but somehow refuses to even consider the other attacking force which is just fine... everything is going swimmingly.
Ill just kill the refugees - although they have nothing to do with hostilities and attacks. Only she doesnt. because... i dunno, electrolytes? Only she wants the out like right now, but doesnt want to know anything about the attacking force...

Thats just... amazing.

Quote
Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment.


Wut? Didnt you notice that Tiefling smith making +1 armors gear and weapons? They dont lack food for the moment? What does that mean?
How come? Seeing how they are ruining the natural resources and whatnot?


Quote
So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid.


Never mentioned by anyone in the game. And even if it gets into some NPCs dialogue the player wont be able to address it in any way. Or to point out that refugees actually want to gtfo.



Quote
Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."


Umm... just wow.

Not a word about enclose yourself and hide while refusing to even think about forces destroying everything around you, btw.

Work against those who disturb it, - lol.


Quote
So in the eyes of the Druis the arrival of the Refugees and the old Archdruid accepting them in was see like a disturbance of balance. They also say that since the Refugee arrivals creatures in the area turned way more hostile. While this is true or just a coincidence they have reasons to believe this Refugees must move away and quick.

Did you just skip what i repeatedly said about this or are you literally incapable to see my words?

1. Attacks started before refugees came along. Only apparently druids are brain damaged, and all have some kind of memento condition. Simply dont observe the area around the Grove, dont care, cant remember what just happened.

2. Attack on the gates of the Grove does not happen because of the refugees at all.

3. The player can and does find plenty of evidence - yet is never allowed to even mention it.

4. The refugees want to get out not stay there.

5. .... whatever, really. wtf. why am i even wasting my time.

Last edited by Surface R; 14/11/20 09:01 PM.
Surface R #734388 14/11/20 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Surface R
I edit in the reply to you previous post into the post above.

Quote
This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot.


I understood you the first time. They have no idea when the situation will become less hot. In fact f Kagha geiousplan wors things will only become more hot. indefinitely. And they fail to even be interested in who the enemies are and what capabilities they have. This also - again for the fifteenth time - will result in destruction of the whole area around the grove, mass murders and destruction of nature. - i.e. destruction of balance. While putting the grove into a permanent siege and encirclement. With no option to affect that situation in any way but just wait until the enemy manages to figure out some way to get in and kill them all. This of course is something not available to player characters to point out.

Kagha on the other hand being a Shadowdruid - only not - apparently - according to you would kill refugees - but somehow refuses to even consider the other attacking force which is just fine... everything is going swimmingly.
Ill just kill the refugees - although they have nothing to do with hostilities and attacks. Only she doesnt. because... i dunno, electrolytes? Only she wants the out like right now, but doesnt want to know anything about the attacking force...

Thats just... amazing.

Quote
Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment.


Wut? Didnt you notice that Tiefling smith making +1 armors gear and weapons? They dont lack food for the moment? What does that mean?
How come? Seeing how they are ruining the natural resources and whatnot?


Quote
So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid.


Never mentioned by anyone in the game. And even if it gets into some NPCs dialogue the player wont be able to address it in any way. Or to point out that refugees actually want to gtfo.



Quote
Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."


Umm... just wow.





Allright i try to be more clear sorry english is not my first language so please bear with me.
The druidic circle is a place of mystical power for the druids so important that if that would be destroyed would cause most of the time a chain reaction all around that would create a damage that could not be undone so easily. Even if the groove and the area around the grove would be torn down but the circle would survive the druid could replants trees bring back animals with no problem. If instead the circle is destroyed that would be way more difficoult to do. This is why for druids is paramount the circle will survive at any cost. Consider also that a ritual like Khaga wants to do would shield totally the Circle is more easy to take a well defended fortress than penetrate in the defence of a ritual so complex. The goblin would simply not be capable to do it Absolute or not this is how powerful this ritual is. Khaga is in a problematic situation as she gained consensus but nobody is aware she is a shadow druid((or most likely being manipulated by them)) aside of the shadow druids hidden whiting the grove. She is slowly bringing the circle on the side of the Shadowdruids see that as a sort of mindset corruption going on. Being way too directly drastic would make her lose the consensus she gained and with that the position of it.

The attacking force situation is a bit problematic see the old Archdruid were aware of this new situation with the goblins however he went away with the adventurersd and got captured in the end.That probably given Khaga the opportunity to gain consensous and end as Archdruid. Druids are the most problematic character or NPC to deal with. Their way of reasoning usually elused the common way of thinking the game gives hint that since the Refugee arrivals the situation on the Grove and surrounding becomed way more violent. Of course Khaga is lacking the general picture of it but she dislike outsiders coming in to the Grove and if was for her probably those refugees were sent away and would never had been taken in.

A druid usually think in the long run.
Imagine this you are a Druid and you can see this new people coming in your sacred grove they start to build shelter eating food from wilderness and consume they are many so there is the danger they would actually bring problems to the Balance of the Areas. Then you have the area turning more violent. On all of this a nautiloid crashed in to the ground probably destroying part of the nearby wilderness like if this was not enough a group of adventured chased by goblins brought them to the Grove.

Now is easy to understand why Khaga don't want the Refugees and want to sent them out quickly as possible. Is also even esier to understand why she is preparing a ritugal that would cause the grove to be sealed and impenetrable to save the Druidic Circle.

Also is a druidic circle of Silvanus they always tend to avoid open confrontation. As for the refugee they want indeed to leave but they did reiceved an attack they have childrens and some people that are not even fighters. Venturing out toward Baldur's Gate is a huge risk of them because in the end they are many and they would be noticed. I can undestand both points of view. Like i said is a complex situation for both and is even worse as Khaga i think is being manipulated by the Shadow Druids.






Last edited by Rieline; 14/11/20 11:12 PM.
Vhaldez #734778 15/11/20 06:54 PM
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I'm glad to see active on this topic, it gives us a better chance that Larian will pay more attention to the Kagha and make a rework. All the same, she is cute, I would like to romance her in the second playthrough. She is even better than Shadow Heart, but needs to be more neutral and "more elven" albeit with a difficult character. Her features need to be softened a little too, as well as her character, so that she is more cute. But just a little so that she doesn't become too good.

If Larian wants to add more companions and characters for romance, then let it be Kagha and not the strange werewolf halflings or tieflings with a crossbow.
Probably I'm one of those gamers who make decisions on the routes based on what kind of charismatic girl I will get in this route for my party.

OneManArmy #734793 15/11/20 07:34 PM
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While I'm also glad to see activity on this thread I feel the message I wanted to convey is getting a bit lost in translation now.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I'm glad to see active on this topic, it gives us a better chance that Larian will pay more attention to the Kagha and make a rework. All the same, she is cute, I would like to romance her in the second playthrough. She is even better than Shadow Heart, but needs to be more neutral and "more elven" albeit with a difficult character. Her features need to be softened a little too, as well as her character, so that she is more cute. But just a little so that she doesn't become too good.

If Larian wants to add more companions and characters for romance, then let it be Kagha and not the strange werewolf halflings or tieflings with a crossbow.
Probably I'm one of those gamers who make decisions on the routes based on what kind of charismatic girl I will get in this route for my party.
All for reworking the grove storyline but maybe not for making everyone who is remotely likeable a romance option.

Vhaldez #734828 15/11/20 09:26 PM
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OneManArmy likes to take concepts to the extreme, right now one of his favourite theme is romance. I cannot guarantee that he is not 100% serious but I would like to think so. Take it with a grain of salt (those big ones you can buy on ebay).
Serious or not, it does provide entertainment and interesting reactions by others.
Kagha does have a point. Maybe the devs could improve her character by offering a clearer explanation why the refugee situation is unsustainable. If the druids are truly in a desperate situation it would make the choice of the player even harder

Last edited by ArmouredHedgehog; 15/11/20 09:46 PM.
Vhaldez #734853 15/11/20 11:07 PM
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I felt they explained it well enough. Xenophobic druids decided to enact a ritual that would seal off the grove from outside forces. They'd been conducting the ritual for a few days and were nearing completion which meant that the Teiflings had to go. The Teiflings were reluctant to leave because the Goblin threat was still out there and if they tried to make their way to Baldur's Gate they'd be killed. Desperation on the druids part was never a factor as it was simply time running out for the completion of the ritual. There isn't really a choice between druids and Teiflings; it's more do you enact the isolationist plan for which you will gain nothing and makes sense for the situation; or do you solve the groves issues by one of the three other methods. The other three being: Kill off the druids, remove Kagha through force/persuasion, or go save Halsin/kill the puppet cult and let him deal with it.

It's apparently been stated by Larian's head that they had to force their writers to add in "evil" choices and those boil down to; be an idiot and kill someone that could've been useful down the line. Personally I prefer when the decisions are more grey and you can argue which was the better choice. I mean if they're going to go with a psychotic evil path they needed to have a psychotically fun companion to go with it, and they very much don't have that.

Also I have to agree with the lets not have every single thing that breaths be romanceable. That would result in either a space captain scenario, or a whole lot of shallow romances.

FelLich #734864 15/11/20 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FelLich
I mean if they're going to go with a psychotic evil path they needed to have a psychotically fun companion to go with it, and they very much don't have that.


That seems to be exactly what they're going for with Astarion.

Vhaldez #734875 16/11/20 12:13 AM
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Astarion is a bit of a hard fail as an evil character though.
I mean yes, he is a vampire and yes he does want to eat you, but he is always such a cheeky rascal that you can’t help but love him.

He is also never that bothered if you do good as long as you’re not whiter than Snow White and he often in talking to him never sounds anything more than a debonair chap who is a bit naughty but not the bad sort naughty, just you know, naughty.

In all seriousness, he is too accepting of a non evil play though (if he is supposed to be the evil one), and is hardly in your ear making nasty or manipulative suggestions, even in ironic jest.

Perhaps when character interventions are introduced, but otherwise he’s a overly charming vampire. You don’t expect good, but you’re not getting evil either. At worst he’s neutral evil and that’s a stretch.

Now, I’ll caveat that and say if you yourself play evil he might be the more impressed of the group, or you might access speech lines that you don’t get if you stay on the so called good quest line. Which means he might be playing the room, staying coy if you’re not evil, loving it if you are and if so I missed a trick, but i would love a truly nasty character in camp, one that whispers in your ear until you break and grin maniacally as you fall into his or her train of thinking, or you break and flat out kill them before you go mad.

Last edited by Riandor; 16/11/20 12:14 AM.
Vhaldez #734891 16/11/20 01:54 AM
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I just don't see Astarion being evil, he comes across as aristocracy rather than a form of evil. He sees himself as above all others, similar to Lae'zel, and is interested in his own self gain. He wants to be rich, powerful and in control of his own life. Specifically, this is shown in his want to be free of Cazador's control and willingness to split his soul's ownership to accomplish it. Even his want to control the tadpole is born of a need to be in control rather than any grand evil designs. Sure the guy can be an ass and doesn't care about other people's lives but he's not psychotic by any stretch, none of the current companions are. His flamboyance (eccentric nature?) can perhaps come across as self absorbed and aloof but it never really reaches a level of evil, not in my mind at least. Lae'zel might, hard might, be the closest companion to being evil and that's only because she's a soldier with a fanatic loyalty to her queen, plus a hefty dose of pride. With the others; Gale is a moron, Wyll is good though has made at least one bad choice and Shadowheart is probably brainwashed. But, as Riandor says, none of the companions want to dance in blood or watch the grove burn because the druids didn't show enough respect, they don't find it fun to drive the Gnoll mad and make it eat itself after eating everyone else. While at the same time liking the Teiflings because they're polite and make nice music. Sure they can some of them can accept "evil" actions such as killing innocence or potential allies but for them its all kosher so long as you're making your way towards getting the tadpole out of your head. Truly none of them are psychotically evil or even just plain evil, which puts a crimp in a lot of the current evil choices and paths which are all kill anything that breaths. I mean if one of them had wondered aloud if the druids were all that tough when the lady at the steps threatens you that would've been a good poke that maybe you should just get rid of them. Little nudges here and there would work well, but for all the current companions that doesn't seem to be in their character. Granted such things can change, after all we've only got the first act right now, and maybe through the story Astarion or one of the others might "show their true colours". But as it currently is I have a hard time seeing any of the companions as evil in any real form.

The companions being more self absorbed jackasses rather than any form of evil can be seen simply in their whole reaction to the grove. Yes Wyll and Gale want to help, or at least Wyll obviously does. But Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel are pretty much "This place have a cure? No? Well fuck this place lets get going". That said having something in your skull that could at any moment kill your and obliterate your soul does tend to redirect priorities but their tone sells the attitude.

Vhaldez #734975 16/11/20 07:28 AM
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Yeah this kinda now starts swinging towards the other thread regarding the “evil path”, but whilst I don’t want a grand moustache twiddling cliche of baddie in my camp, someone perhaps finally more like the worshipper of Loviatar in the goblin camp, someone who takes actual pleasure in nasty deeds.

Someone who might whisper in your ear about how you know:

Them: “...or we couuuuuld flay their skin off?”
Us: “We could? Oh yeah hmmm yeah we could couldn’t we.”

Someone who if you leave them in camp long enough they infect others with their poisonous mind. Shadowheart maybe, or Gale.

Interesting fact (probably mentioned elsewhere in the forum) Loviatar serves Bhaal, but also hung around with Shar during Bhaal’s absence.

FelLich #734980 16/11/20 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FelLich
I just don't see Astarion being evil



Evil or not, you can tell by the actions they approve or disapprove.

Astarion is chaotic evil, that's how I see it. He approves of killing a squirrel, approves of killing a child for stealing, approves of betraying the tieflings (many others bad things). At a party among corpses, you get his approval, and he is much happier than at a tiefling party.
Yes, he doesn't leave you if you save them, but maybe just because he's using you. Leaving is not profitable. Also, he does not approve of saving the tieflings, or any other actions close to this. Does that mean anything to you? It seems to me that the developers should add more 'disapprove reactions' so that people understand that Astarion is evil character.
He's also xenophobic...


Even if he has a traumatic past and a fear of a master, it doesn't change anything. He kill for fun, it cant be good or neutrally.


We don't have much information, he may be unhappy travel with you, but still stay to use you.

Also you don't need to have great intentions to be evil.


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Vhaldez #734985 16/11/20 08:24 AM
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Well you could if that approve or disapprove stayed on the screen long enough 😜.

Yeah Astarion is of course happier with the darker side of things, but he’s not hard to keep moderately happy. Heck maybe I got away with all those good things by letting him feed on me! Haha.

I have nothing against Astarion at all actually, I personally just feel there could also be someone a little more twisted in camp. I actually thought it might have been the resurrect dude who hangs around camp, but no (not yet at any rate).

Last edited by Riandor; 16/11/20 08:25 AM.
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