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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Haven't played Divinity 2, tried a couple of times but something just turns me off, so don't know too much about the system even though it doesn't appeal particularly to me, but that aside it seems like a pretty huge undertaking to take up in a fully voice acted game. Somewhat wasteful too, all things considered. I mean, i think even from the most casual of casual players perspective the appeal of playing a premade character or a custom one must be around the same. And i very much doubt that kind of crowd would even ever play the story as different origins.

That too.

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Originally Posted by guy
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by guy
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Considering that the "Origin" system continues in BG3, you might suspect that players enjoyed using it in DoS2.
The argument that the custom characters were shallow doesn't make much sense in this case. Most people didn't even know it when they first played it, but the system would still have to be popular (most people don't even finish games, not to mention playing a few times.).
If it were otherwise, Larian would not waste resources to introduce a mechanic that not many people like.

Could use some statistics from DoS2 how many people finished the game as a custom character. It may turn out that the "origin" system may have been more popular than we think.


This isn't DoS2.

Larian is falling back on a system they already developed. Thats what big game developers do.

DoS has different source material than BG. Just because it seems to have worked well for one source material does not mean it will work well for a different source material.

In addition, just the title itself will be attracting a player base from decades ago.

I just do not see origins working well with this source material unless it opened up entire new start areas and game play.

Neat little easter egg. But not the meat and potatoes.

spells. races. classes. map. npc interactions.

will the druids give different items to druid player characters? will tieflings let tiefling player characters join their group? etc etc.

and MORE companions. Halson the druid good spot to join. minthara. a few others.
Even getting that smart ogre to join your party.
There are better things the devs could focus on, that the player base would go absolutely enjoy more.

There should be more focus on that, and less on origins of very limited companions.


Why shouldn't this work for BG3?

The last thing the game needs is a bunch of poorly written companions.



Don't be daft. BG, and d and d in general, is about free play and bekng able to make choices, and being rewarded for knowing the lore and the choices to make.

Also, compare bg3 companions to companions from BG 1 and 2.
Can. Minc. Dynaheir. Jaheira. Even a hidden cleric you get by using stone to flesh on a random statue.. and a drow cleric lots of story there. And a winged elf that had her wings cut off. And a druid werewolf.. I can keep going.
The current bg3 campanions are dry. Cliche. All are tortured and whiney.

Halson would make a amazing companion. And Volo. Imagjne him a companion. And minthara.
But chars being forced to join because of tadpoles and so are always whining? How is that consider good character development?



As for BG1, most companions had virtually no history after they joined.
BG2 was a huge improvement over BG1 but even there were extremely mediocre characters like Cernd, Haer'Dalis and Valygar.
In the current games, 5-8 characters are standard (we currently know about 8 in BG3). There are rarely more of them, but then usually many of them are noticeably worse written.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 14/11/20 07:17 PM.
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and none of them were forced to be companions.

Yes, there were a few with bad backgrounds. There were more with good backgrounds.

Bg3 so far. All companions have tadpoles. Half dont want anything to do with you.

All railroaded and forced to join you because of tadpole.

Back to the topic of origins.

In my opinion. Better approach is to treat it as bg2 did. Background unlocked through conversation and rp with characters.

Making origins of companions part of the game play? No.

Especially if the plan is to only limited companions.

Instead of spending the resources for that origin play.... use the resources to add more companion, and axe the origin play.

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Originally Posted by guy
and none of them were forced to be companions.

Yes, there were a few with bad backgrounds. There were more with good backgrounds.

Bg3 so far. All companions have tadpoles. Half dont want anything to do with you.

All railroaded and forced to join you because of tadpole.

Back to the topic of origins.

In my opinion. Better approach is to treat it as bg2 did. Background unlocked through conversation and rp with characters.

Making origins of companions part of the game play? No.

Especially if the plan is to only limited companions.

Instead of spending the resources for that origin play.... use the resources to add more companion, and axe the origin play.


Even if the characters of origin are removed. I doubt we will get more companions.
The number of companions is not a problem, 8 is a good amount (maybe 1 or 2 more will come).
The fact that out of the present companions 3 are evil (although in the case of one can argue), still we get 3 more that are good.

Since larian believes that the mechanics are worth keeping, it means that many players like it.
Deleting it because you don't like it is kinda selfish.





Last edited by Rhobar121; 14/11/20 07:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by guy
and none of them were forced to be companions.

Yes, there were a few with bad backgrounds. There were more with good backgrounds.

Bg3 so far. All companions have tadpoles. Half dont want anything to do with you.

All railroaded and forced to join you because of tadpole.

Back to the topic of origins.

In my opinion. Better approach is to treat it as bg2 did. Background unlocked through conversation and rp with characters.

Making origins of companions part of the game play? No.

Especially if the plan is to only limited companions.

Instead of spending the resources for that origin play.... use the resources to add more companion, and axe the origin play.


Even if the characters of origin are removed. I doubt we will get more companions.
The number of companions is not a problem, 8 is a good amount (maybe 1 or 2 more will come).
The fact that out of the present companions 3 are evil (although in the case of one can argue), still we get 3 more that are good.

Since larian believes that the mechanics are worth keeping, it means that many players like it.
Deleting it because you don't like it is kinda selfish.






You are kinda one sided on this arent you?

My point is that the way the companion system is NOT good for bg.

It might work for DoS. But here? No.

The devs are using a system that they already used and are familiar with. I dont think it has anything to do with what the player base wants.

What I am saying is that the system, as it stands now, and if it goes the way they seem to be planning it, will not be interesting or engaging.

What I also brought up is that there are different approaches that would work better in this game, with the source material available.

If you want the system the devs are proposing. Fine. Your opinion. But you will also move on quickly after you get bored of the repeat content. It is not a engaging way forward.

Again. Just the title of this game is going to bring people back from decades ago, and the 5e game play will bring in a younger crowd.

Origins is a lick. There is no depth, no meat to it

More companions and companion content is a heartier meal.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Could use some statistics from DoS2 how many people finished the game as a custom character. It may turn out that the "origin" system may have been more popular than we think.

That wouldn’t be very helpful though. I, for one, on both my playthroughs played as pre-made characters because a quick google revealed that custom characrters will simply be a weaker experience. Still, it doesn’t change a fact that I enjoyed neither my PCs nor companions.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121

A lot of people like to play predefined characters.
Such characters usually have a better connection to the game world.
Games like witcher and me are popular for a reason.
In the case of custom characters, writing a story of their own for them is difficult because it would require them to have some kind of "frame".

Yes, but Witcher or Mass Effect has little to do with what Larian does.

Witcher or Mass Effects work, because they are crafted around the pre-made character. There is a benefit of defining the player character, and even though Witcher or Mass Effect might put their RPG-ness into question, there are great RPGs with pre-determined character and wide range of player expression (Deus Ex, Planescape, Disco Elysium). Larian games don’t have this advantage, because they are not crafted around single PC: it’s still build around MULTIPLE “pre-defined” characters as well as custom ones. They still have “frames” overriding whatever character we play as (Godwoken in D:OS2, infected by tadpoles in BG3). Motivating the player, while allowing them for a range of characters to play as is challenging I am sure. And don’t make a mistake - blank slates are also “written”. Who you can be is always defined by devs. I just don’t think what Larian does works very well outside multiplayer matchmaking.

I know who my Geralt is. I know who my Shepard is. I also know who Liara, Garrus and Wrex are. I know who my 3 different PC is Pillars of Eternity are. I can describe Eder, Aloth and Durance. But I have no idea who Ifan is even though I played him for over 100 hours. I wasn’t able to define him, nor was I able to learn about him while playing. I don’t know who Red Prince or Sebille is... outside vignettes made for their origins.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Could use some statistics from DoS2 how many people finished the game as a custom character. It may turn out that the "origin" system may have been more popular than we think.

That wouldn’t be very helpful though. I, for one, on both my playthroughs played as pre-made characters because a quick google revealed that custom characrters will simply be a weaker experience. Still, it doesn’t change a fact that I enjoyed neither my PCs nor companions.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121

A lot of people like to play predefined characters.
Such characters usually have a better connection to the game world.
Games like witcher and me are popular for a reason.
In the case of custom characters, writing a story of their own for them is difficult because it would require them to have some kind of "frame".

Yes, but Witcher or Mass Effect has little to do with what Larian does.

Witcher or Mass Effects work, because they are crafted around the pre-made character. There is a benefit of defining the player character, and even though Witcher or Mass Effect might put their RPG-ness into question, there are great RPGs with pre-determined character and wide range of player expression (Deus Ex, Planescape, Disco Elysium). Larian games don’t have this advantage, because they are not crafted around single PC: it’s still build around MULTIPLE “pre-defined” characters as well as custom ones. They still have “frames” overriding whatever character we play as (Godwoken in D:OS2, infected by tadpoles in BG3). Motivating the player, while allowing them for a range of characters to play as is challenging I am sure. And don’t make a mistake - blank slates are also “written”. Who you can be is always defined by devs. I just don’t think what Larian does works very well outside multiplayer matchmaking.

I know who my Geralt is. I know who my Shepard is. I also know who Liara, Garrus and Wrex are. I know who my 3 different PC is Pillars of Eternity are. I can describe Eder, Aloth and Durance. But I have no idea who Ifan is even though I played him for over 100 hours. I wasn’t able to define him, nor was I able to learn about him while playing. I don’t know who Red Prince or Sebille is... outside vignettes made for their origins.


There's also that, unless Larian's got unlimitied resources, one single protagonist is always gonna feel more focused and be better than 5/6/7 who need to share the spotlight. I'm sure that in DoS:2 a couple of the origins, if not more, were lackluster compared to the others. I don't wanna say it's gonna be worse here, 'cause i imagine the work required to make it all work will be way more, but eh. Usually when games spread themselves too thin they suffer in the later parts.

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I have no interest in origin characters, i make characters myself as its how D&D is designed, for me personally origin characters are a waste of dev time and assets.. (i never used them in Divinity either)

Plus the fact i kinda dislike all the origin characters immensely doesn't help.. Not one Gnome, Halfling or Dwarven character, also everything you meet is spiteful nasty and i just lost interest. For me Solasta did character creation right.

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Depends...i'm a big fan of DAO origin system(pick your character's background), but DoS\BG realization(playing the role of one of the ingame characters) just meh.

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Might pick origin once or twice, mainly for the amusement of playing Laezel as a compassionate knight-in-shining-armor.

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Originally Posted by Ari
Might pick origin once or twice, mainly for the amusement of playing Laezel as a compassionate knight-in-shining-armor.


Brilliant. The idea and Lae'zel's armour...

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I dont quite understand what origin characters have to do with Baldur's gate or D&D. Why is this one of the must-have feature of BG3?

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I only played with the Origin character mod for a short time before giving up but there is a problem with trying to subvert the story -- the conversations on ground triggers. At certain points the origin characters will make comments that the player has no control over and those comments are in line with the original design.

There are a couple with Tav as well. If you go the part of the grove where the tiefling bets you 10gp that the goblins will kill her you can find a trigger where LZ will express contempt for the weakness of the tieflings and Tav will rebuke her saying something like "lay off these are desperate refugees not fighters":

Which is probably what my Tav would have said but it annoyed me that I didn't get to choose a substantive RP option.

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Originally Posted by charlarn
I dont quite understand what origin characters have to do with Baldur's gate or D&D. Why is this one of the must-have feature of BG3?


Why not? Origin characters take your companions and puts them center stage, you get specific tag lines when interacting with other npcs for said character. Kind of wonder how many people are going to play Shadowheart when it goes live...

D&D has done this, off the top of my head I know there was a board game/card game that had pre-generated characters you played as.

Here, took me about a minute to search for it, youtube vid of neverwinter nights at 1:03 Create New Character or Select Premade Character


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Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by charlarn
I dont quite understand what origin characters have to do with Baldur's gate or D&D. Why is this one of the must-have feature of BG3?


Why not? Origin characters take your companions and puts them center stage, you get specific tag lines when interacting with other npcs for said character. Kind of wonder how many people are going to play Shadowheart when it goes live...

D&D has done this, off the top of my head I know there was a board game/card game that had pre-generated characters you played as.

Here, took me about a minute to search for it, youtube vid of neverwinter nights at 1:03 Create New Character or Select Premade Character





Those arent anything like the origin characters in BG3 since they dont get their own stories. They're the equivalent of clicking "venture forth" with the default character build.

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Originally Posted by charlarn
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by charlarn
I dont quite understand what origin characters have to do with Baldur's gate or D&D. Why is this one of the must-have feature of BG3?


Why not? Origin characters take your companions and puts them center stage, you get specific tag lines when interacting with other npcs for said character. Kind of wonder how many people are going to play Shadowheart when it goes live...

D&D has done this, off the top of my head I know there was a board game/card game that had pre-generated characters you played as.

Here, took me about a minute to search for it, youtube vid of neverwinter nights at 1:03 Create New Character or Select Premade Character





Those arent anything like the origin characters in BG3 since they dont get their own stories. They're the equivalent of clicking "venture forth" with the default character build.


Arent? are not?? they are premade characters, the base of the argument is really why play a character premade vs making your own. then slap on additional features to those premade characters.

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because the point of a role playing game is to make a character and develop it by roleplaying it in the face of challenges.

origin characters remove all of the agency by having everything pre determined.

hell, did you play Temple of Elemental Evil with the default party or did you make your own?

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Originally Posted by tsundokugames
because the point of a role playing game is to make a character and develop it by roleplaying it in the face of challenges.

origin characters remove all of the agency by having everything pre determined.

hell, did you play Temple of Elemental Evil with the default party or did you make your own?


If you don't want to play origin character, nobody forces you to do so. Just make a character you like and go for it. What's the point of your whining?

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Originally Posted by fallenj

Arent? are not?? they are premade characters, the base of the argument is really why play a character premade vs making your own. then slap on additional features to those premade characters.

Well, that’s not nearly the same thing. A lot of RPGs have pre-sets that players can pick for a fast start, but those are essentially pre-made custom characters. What’s more pre-made custom characters, just affect character creation. The worry is, at least mine, is that origins take away from both custom characters and companions, as it was in D:OS2. Custom characters don’t get good enough context and development because “hey, if you want story we pre-written an intro for an origin. Pick one!” while companions are limited by what they can be as they are meant to be possessed at any time by a coop buddy.

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Originally Posted by Maerd
If you don't want to play origin character, nobody forces you to do so. Just make a character you like and go for it.

I just hope the freedom to choose is there and goes both ways. That is to say, if we want to play as a fully custom character, I hope Larian doesn't remove this option we currently have.

If they go with "the custom PC also has an Origin story", then they are closing doors. As a matter of fact, they are already doing that a bit by giving our custom PC the Baldurian tag. But so far we can roleplay someone not from Baldur's Gate by not selecting the corresponding dialogue options.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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