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74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on.


This quote from Community Update 10 is very often quoted on the forum.

She greatly upsets the feelings of many players who wanted to play for evil, but helped the tieflings because the root of evil was poorly developed. There are even many Lolth Drow and other lovers of the path of evil who helped the tieflings because it was a logical decision. Some didn't even know that the game had the ability to help the goblins!
Don't take this statistic as a conclusion that everyone is only interested in the path of good, please.
Those who are interested in the path of evil are much more than 25%.
In the second playthrough, this figure can be 80-90% of those who made the first playthrough for the path of good, that is, all players will see this content anyway.

This is not a reason for joy and optimism, but a reason admit there is a problem and pay more attention to the evil path, Minthara, Kagha, give more motivation, more content, and so on.

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Why do you keep opening evil path discussions? There are


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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It's actually consistent with every other bit of evidence I've seen on evil paths. Light side / dark side jedi, the number of people who ran an evil party in BG, the sales numbers of Tyranny etc, etc. (and I get that the latter wasn't quite as evil as advertised but it was heavily marketed as a game for people who liked to play evil) Fans of evil playthroughs are a highly vocal minority. If you don't have an evil path in an RPG this will be mentioned in reviews and will become a hatesink for people love to hate on games.

In fact I suspect the numbers are actually inflated since Larian has been encouraging people to test it out. And it's the only way to see n00dz right now.

Granted, I get that people think this wasn't a fair test of the evil path so I would propose another: the hag fight could be changed so she can't be killed before offering her deal and Larian could report the numbers on how many players took the ability score boost and how many decided the end the hag's evil once and for all.

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Now that there's the theory going around that all the Tieflings are in the thieves' guild and Zevlor might be working for the Absolute I'm not sure if there even is a good path anymore.

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Hag probably will be resurrected by her circle in BG. More important would be fixing whole quest.

Last edited by Verte; 18/11/20 05:53 PM.
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As discussed elsewhere already, the problem with the evil path in this game is essentially a design issue created by the fact the writers at Larian don't understand the nature of evil.

There are countless examples of great evil paths in movies and literature, Roy the replicant in Blade Runner or Thanos in Infinity wars, to name a few.

A good path is an emotional path, a social path where you're gonna help others essentially.

An evil path is the path of power, this sensation to be so powerful you can force others to your will easily and gain even more power to overcome the impossible and pursue your ultimate goal. So to help players be eager to explore this route, you need to provide rewards. And this game definitely doesn't.

In BG3, from what we've seen so far, we have a good path tainted by some evil moments, edgy and cruel decisions along the way. It comes down to the fact no real evil path has been written. Can we call it laziness? I don't know. But what I am sure about is you are left with no other choice but remorse and incentive to renounce evil and become the good person you always were deep inside or it will eventually only leave bitterness into your heart.

A very naive contribution to what a compelling evil story could have been if you ask me.

Last edited by Nyanko; 18/11/20 06:06 PM.
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Well I hope the fans of evil paths get what they want. But I also hope they get it in a way that doesn't mess with the heroic path. The problem I have with most evil paths plots is the creation of viable evil path sometimes comes at the detriment to the heroic one.

The FR are a heroic setting at the stories tend to be about heroes saving the day. The path of villian should be there but the writers shouldn't be forced to make the hero's story / villians story equally appealing. Sometimes when you try to please everyone you please no one. Anyone remember John Stewart / Steven Colbert's rally for "sanity and/or fear"?

To me, the evil path seems fine. The absolute has power, that power is based in Moonrise towers and the drow is you key to unlocking that power. Astarian gets it -- you need to find out how to get the power without the cost. Check out his dialogue after finding that true soul who died from his owlbear inflicted wounds. The evil MC is in better place than the fools he has deal with -- the brainwashed cultists aren't are aware of what's happening while you are. Sounds like an opportunity that can be exploited.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Well I hope the fans of evil paths get what they want. But I also hope they get it in a way that doesn't mess with the heroic path. The problem I have with most evil paths plots is the creation of viable evil path sometimes comes at the detriment to the heroic one.

The FR are a heroic setting at the stories tend to be about heroes saving the day. The path of villian should be there but the writers shouldn't be forced to make the hero's story / villians story equally appealing. Sometimes when you try to please everyone you please no one. Anyone remember John Stewart / Steven Colbert's rally for "sanity and/or fear"?

To me, the evil path seems fine. The absolute has power, that power is based in Moonrise towers and the drow is you key to unlocking that power. Astarian gets it -- you need to find out how to get the power without the cost. Check out his dialogue after finding that true soul who died from his owlbear inflicted wounds. The evil MC is in better place than the fools he has deal with -- the brainwashed cultists aren't are aware of what's happening while you are. Sounds like an opportunity that can be exploited.


I don't agree with this. In a world with alignment going in all directions, all paths should be treated equally.

We have to remember only psychopaths enjoy being evil. For the others, it's more a question of priorities over altruism and empathy. And heroism is not incompatible with evil. I am gonna give you a very good example here of what I mean. Have you watched 'The Boys' TV show? In the boys, the one sup who's perceived by the world population as the most heroic of all is also one of the most, if not the most, evil bastard you can imagine.

So a compelling evil path is a possibility to be deceiving to the point people think you are a great hero while in fact you do your best to undermine others works to stay on top. And this path should be equally satisfying as the usual good paladin saving the girl in distress.

That's why it's a complete nonsense to have the goblins becoming your enemies after you defeat the grove. It would have been so satisfying and interesting to be welcomed as their new hero back in the camp before going on on your journey. And for me, this part shows how much disdain Larian gives to the evil path.

Last edited by Nyanko; 18/11/20 06:57 PM.
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The Boys is a really good example smile It's clever, it's got some of the aspects I liked about the Watchmen. I also liked the use of sci fi / fantasy to comment on contemporary politics. I liked it for what it was. 7 out of 10 smile

But I just don't like the "The Boys" as much I like the original Star Wars trilogy. To me Butcher is yet another variation on the Dirty Harry archetype. People who like this archetype see it as more complex and real to life and see Skywalker in his white outfit and blue light sabre as overly cartoonish.

To me both seem equally cartoonish: "Oh, look yet another dark hero. Let me guess the writer is going to establish the dark hero cred with a torture scene" Did you ever watch the TV series Arrow? I thought the first few seasons did "gritty hero" right but later ones just returned to the Dirty Harry archetype and ruined the show.

I still watch the Dirty Harry variation #483 shows and I really like the deconstructing the archetype shows like the Watchmen and Game of Thrones but I want Faerun and the Star Wars universe to be about light triumphing over darkness. As anyone who has tried experimenting with cocktails knows -- sometimes mixing two great flavors together produces an undrinkable mush.


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Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?


You have to remember we have new comers on the forum every day. So just like we do multiple playthroughs of the game, some important topics have to be discussed multiple times to accommodate fresh takes on them :P

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Abits
Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?


You have to remember we have new comers on the forum every day. So just like we do multiple playthroughs of the game, some important topics have to be discussed multiple times to accommodate fresh takes on them :P



Exactly. There are actually only 10 conversations on any given forum -- everything is a variation from those themes. I mean what else are we going to discuss. "I hate character X because I don't like women?" or "boob plate is real "? wink

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Oh and @Nykano -- I have no problem with / actually want examples like yours. If the hero jumps in and has the chance to save the innocent but is then given the option to sell the innocent down the river that's a good design. It gives fans of evil something to do and it makes the actions of the Paladin meaningful. Is the paladin really role playing if the option to be evil didn't exist?

Once the bugs are worked out the hag will be perfect.

What I don't like is when writers get directions like "stop thinking in terms of the hero's quest"

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy

She greatly upsets the feelings of many players who wanted to play for evil, but helped the tieflings because the root of evil was poorly developed. There are even many Lolth Drow and other lovers of the path of evil who helped the tieflings because it was a logical decision. Some didn't even know that the game had the ability to help the goblins!


Because the average Gamer of today must be told everything?
Or maybe because it is the logical decision that Goblins are just trash and not a valid option?

Cause tbh. I think everybody is actually Racist and being a Racist in itself is a very Neutral thing, it just it -> and what people are really thinking is the bad thing, is what I personally call "Race hate".
Racist = Normal
Race-hate = bad

And when I see a Goblin, I see a really trashy disgusting subhumanoid, half a Monster - even without knowing actual facts about them.
The fact that Goblins truly are super evil, spite- and gleeful, this is just a Bonus confirming "their low heritage and being".




But you cannot tell me that my Drow, a narcistic longliving Darkelf with "Fae-masterrace heritage" would side with such ugly, tiny and savage beings, which resemble a fellow Drow even less as the most random Human?
It is not just about long and pointy ears. It is also about height, class, culture, mannerism and intellect.
These Goblins are some sort of Cavemen! You wonder how they can even stay alive?
Obviously by constantly plundering and looting from those who are better than them.
Only the most less and lowly Humanoid is dependend on raids, murder, stealing and constant ransacking.

As if my noble Drow would side with such lesser creatures.
Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarfs and Humans will make so much better slaves... when we decieved them for long enough until we can suddenly just conquer them entirely in one fellow swoop.
And then they will serve us as the visually tolerable Slaves that they are. wink
But Goblins? Ugh. Such hideous, incomplete creatures.

Minthara my evil sister, you have been decieved. The Absolute is not real! Only Lolth and our kin can safe you from your confusion, wake up to it! grin

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The problem with evil paths in games is that they are almost always illogical.

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
[quote=OneManArmy]

Minthara my evil sister, you have been decieved. The Absolute is not real! Only Lolth and our kin can safe you from your confusion, wake up to it! grin



I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute, we will have a choice - absolute evil, betray her for Lolth's sake or the Absolute to take her place, or a moderate evil that I like much more, continue to help her. Become for her a real friend and acting in our interests with the same style. As a team! That would be cool.
The fact that we play evil does not mean that we have to be a completely moral monster, there must be a optional place for something good.

Helping druids is not a good deed but should also have some kind of moral justification, and some words of gratitude from them at least, so that we can rejoice that we have new friends of the shadow druids. Now there is not a single player who helped the Kagha, who could think that he acted "cruel, but right" and remained satisfied.
More precisely, there is no quest to help Kagha in the game at all, that is, there are hints of it, but it simply has not been done.
Instead, Larian did EVERYTHING to prevent the player from having such a desire. Even her facial features and dialogue options . It's good that they didn't show the statistics of those who tried help her - even I didn't try.
This does not mean that we did not want to, it means that there is a problem.

Evil just for Evil's Sake is a Bad Decision

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Originally Posted by Albannach
The problem with evil paths in games is that they are almost always illogical.


This. All the evil path really needs are some earlier hints that the tadpole:

1: Isn't an immediate threat to the host's life.
2: Can be controlled and abused to gain powers similar to a mind flayer.

That's... Pretty much it. I tried an evil playthrough a couple times but all my evil characters bounced off it because they have absolutely no reason to think siding with the goblins is in any way beneficial to them. As far as your character knows the tadpole is a ticking time bomb, and while it may seem to have a strangely long timer it will inevitably kill you.

No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.

So the only logical path forward becomes Halsin. Good or evil it doesn't matter. As long as the player has reason to suspect their life is in danger an evil character will side with whoever can ensure their survival.

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Something that would be interesting is if they actually caused real problems with the Tieflings staying at the Grove.
I think that evil or renegade options are less appealing when there's no real reason behind them other than just being evil for the sake of evil.

But what if the Tiefling and their sudden appearance actually caused a famine and NPC's started to die?
If the issues with the Tieflings staying at the Grove became an actual part of the game then the other options like forcing them out or whatever would become more appealing and understandable.
But when there's no actual issues that occur because of it then it feels less impactful and easier to just go down the good route.

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Is this deja vu? I swear I saw this exact thread, same comments and all, two weeks ago.

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No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.

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