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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



This.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



They also make those pacts because they believe they can escape them and gain more power or get a seat at the big boy table. Having a sentient being in your head that links you to the Mind Flayers and can also, when mature, obliterate your soul is leagues different. One you go to hell, with the every present idea that you can escape. The other you cease to exist, that is not worth some basic telepathy, shiny clothes and empty promises by something that you can, very easily in game, learn is more than likely a circle of Mind Flayers. Not to mention the whole absolute looks like a massive Trojan Horse mission where at the correct time and place they'll throw and switch and turn all the followers into Mind Flayers. There is also no point in dealing with the Mind Flayers as they see everything that isn't them as ants. There is nothing compelling about the Absolute from what we currently know. Now maybe, just maybe the Absolute isn't the Mind Flayer circle, but currently evidence points against.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
All the evil path really needs are some earlier hints that the tadpole:

1: Isn't an immediate threat to the host's life.
2: Can be controlled and abused to gain powers similar to a mind flayer.

You are kidding right?
Every single character we meet, and we are discuising with is talking about that our tadpole does nothing, and therefore we have time, since its alternet by some strainge magic ...

What more do you need? O_o

You never can be certain, since nobody we met so far have even the slightest idea about what exactly this tadpole is, or what it does ... not even a freaking mind flayer know! -_-
And that is just it ... we are supose to play on chance. Yes, we may turn ... and yes, we may controll it ... remove one option, and it become incredibly stupid.
I mean, if there is a certain way to exploid tadpole, and certainly removing all dangers that are tied to it ... why would no one use it before? Especialy if that process is so common knowledge, so some random guy in middle of nowhere knows about it? :-/


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute


Who knows? Most people do not seem to know this but Drow atually do not need to have 'red' eyes.
And apparently they only have the red eyes because Lolth favours them in some way for their mentality and actions.
Lolth probably thinks it is cute that a Drow has gone "renegade" but is still acting like an evil, cruel Drow Mistress should. She is a cruel Goddess supporting ill will and manipulation after all.
I think she would be more enraged with Minthara if she suddenly becomes a "surface Races lover" and wants to do good things overall. wink


But yeah Drow can actually lose their red eyes if they denounce Lolth and choose Eilistrae instead.
Very ni~ce if you see a Drow with eyes that are not red it is kinda a seal of proof that they are most trustworthy.
Until the Lolthsworn Drow learn to hide their eyecolor that is.

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Originally Posted by FelLich
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



They also make those pacts because they believe they can escape them and gain more power or get a seat at the big boy table. Having a sentient being in your head that links you to the Mind Flayers and can also, when mature, obliterate your soul is leagues different. One you go to hell, with the every present idea that you can escape. The other you cease to exist, that is not worth some basic telepathy, shiny clothes and empty promises by something that you can, very easily in game, learn is more than likely a circle of Mind Flayers. Not to mention the whole absolute looks like a massive Trojan Horse mission where at the correct time and place they'll throw and switch and turn all the followers into Mind Flayers. There is also no point in dealing with the Mind Flayers as they see everything that isn't them as ants. There is nothing compelling about the Absolute from what we currently know. Now maybe, just maybe the Absolute isn't the Mind Flayer circle, but currently evidence points against.


What would you prefer to see?


Personally I like the "seductive evil" trope they've gone with. In terms of demon lovers we have Mizora who seduces a would be hero into an infernal deal and a vampire the classic archetype of seductive evil. Also, the tadpole comes to us in the form of a seducer offering us real power. We know we shouldn't but somehow we do . . .

Right away we have powerful gloves that we can only use if we take the brand. Not all evil parties will kill Gut but those who do will also have a shield and amulet.

Now you are right -- if you are going to hell anyway it only makes sense to spend damnation as pit fiend. But the fact that the absolute wants us dead should tempt us to believe that we can get an Asmodius like "deal". Perhaps we can develop that power without paying the price. That's what Sarevok thought. That's what Szass Tam thought. Both brilliant strategists whose fatal flaw was their lust for power.

I don't think good evil narrative = cost free power. I think "we know we shouldn't but we do anyway" is a) more interesting b) more in keeping with realms lore c) makes the good path come alive.

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Seductive evil doesn't draw me in unless it's done very well, it comes across as lesser or petty. I suppose my issue is that I prefer the pursuit of power to make things better even if others can't understand or don't agree. The idea where you want to improve things but you believe that no one else other than yourself can actually accomplish it. It's obviously not the good path because you're doing it on the belief that everyone else is simply too incompetent, too corrupt to accomplish it. "If I have to drag them into the future kicking and screaming than so be it." that kind of evil. Take the Absolute's order to destroy the grove, that's a failure to convert those people to your cause. Now obviously you can't always convince people to see things your way, sometimes you have to remove people in order to better the world. However, the complete extermination of the Teiflings and Druids shows that the Absolute is a one trick pony that can only succeed through the use of simpletons such as the Goblins and puppets such as Minthara and the Hobgoblin. That's a danger sign as for the Absolute to succeed it needs to stick tadpoles in peoples head and control them. Sure she/he will show up in your dreams and offer you power, however as you progress you gain a fairly good idea that its the tadpole and its master pushing you to use it more and more so that it can grow stronger rather than you. Of course, beating the dead horse, we're not sure if its a Illithid plot or been hijacked by a singular or group of gods so there is a chance that there's a carrot somewhere, but it's a pretty shriveled carrot. If the there was an objective to convert the Teiflings to follow the Absolute, that they would be able to find an accepting home under this new order than that is compelling. Obviously the druids would be wiped out, because there's just no saving them from themselves.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
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No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.


I mean, the evil Tav that doesn't sell their soul is still going to end up in the Nine Hells, Abyss, Tarterus etc. May as well get an early signing bonus and hopefully work your way up the chain so you at least end up as a spinagon or something when you die. Beats starting the real portion of your existence as a lemure or dretch.

Time on the prime (and life in general) is sort of meaningless when the afterlife is a well known reality.

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You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"



Then in small print 'we do not guarantee health insurance'

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Then in small print 'we do not guarantee health insurance'


lol

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"


Likely a fair number choose evil because they think they can beat the odds. They dont think THEY willl end up as a lemure, dretch, larvae, or whatever. No, no, they're imp material at least! Or at least they get a good time in the noob zone before Plus look at what the goody two shoes get for their lifetime of selflessness, sacrifice and toil.... a lantern archon! Some barely sentient ball of light toiling away in the afterlife for the greater good!

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute


Who knows? Most people do not seem to know this but Drow atually do not need to have 'red' eyes.
And apparently they only have the red eyes because Lolth favours them in some way for their mentality and actions.
Lolth probably thinks it is cute that a Drow has gone "renegade" but is still acting like an evil, cruel Drow Mistress should. She is a cruel Goddess supporting ill will and manipulation after all.
I think she would be more enraged with Minthara if she suddenly becomes a "surface Races lover" and wants to do good things overall. wink


But yeah Drow can actually lose their red eyes if they denounce Lolth and choose Eilistrae instead.
Very ni~ce if you see a Drow with eyes that are not red it is kinda a seal of proof that they are most trustworthy.
Until the Lolthsworn Drow learn to hide their eyecolor that is.



The ability for the player to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee after some drama sounds too fantastic and I'm not sure Larian will be working on such content, but I would be very happy to try this opportunity. For this, it is necessary that the way to get Minthara into the party was not only with the goblin root, she can surrender and offer her help when we help tieflings, for example. I don't think she wants to die when all the other goblins are dead, and the Absolute will punish her even if she survives. This should be followed by some unusual events in the Moonrise Tower, and a lot of dialogue like Viconia to make her neutral.

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Seductive evil is well and good trope and the implantation of it in this game is really great (assuming it will go where we think it will - the usege of the absolute powers will have some major consequences down the line). However like I said many times before, choosing to use the absolute powers has nothing to do with the "evil path" directly and to put these two story threads together as a inseparable thing might make the evil path look much better than it actually is, but is just not really what's going on in the game.

About evil in the FR - the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the FR idea of what is evil and its role in the settings is the silliest thing that ever came out of this setting (and this settings has giant miniature space hamsters)


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.


Yes, really. Power you can't use is no power at all.

What the game needs to do is offer a convincing argument that the tadpole is power you can use without it killing you. It could be based on a lie, but the argument needs to be made.

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I made two mage characters -- first had the sage background, classic apprenticeship and access to libraries. Spent much of her life thinking about how necromancy corrupts the souls of its practitioners. She had Shadowheart destroy that evil tome right away. (and, interestingly, SH approved)

Second character I imagined as an urchin who only learned magic by stealing tomes. She was able to crawl out of the gutter by using the skills contained in the pages of those books. A lust for knowledge and fear that her power could be taken away is one of pillars of her personality. She knew that opening that book was a bad idea. She knows who Szass Tam is, how he treats other wizards and suspects that the tome might be trap. Spend too much time in those pages and Tam might just use the book as a portal to steal her soul . . .

But those anesthetist eyes drew her in. Perhaps this knowledge could be used for good? After all what would be the harm? Just slip on that one ring flip to another page.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
What the game needs to do is offer a convincing argument that the tadpole is power you can use without it killing you. It could be based on a lie, but the argument needs to be made.

You really want some old graybearded grandfather named dungeonmaster to lead you dont you? :-/

For one, every character that is talking about how tadpole is dangerous and how you can turn every moment ... is just making asumption, that are btw based on rules that clearly dont aply to yourself, since you would be transformed allready!
For two, you have whole goblin camp full of "true souls" and you know about them, that they all have tadpole ... and since they werent on the ship with you, they once again clearly, have it longer than you. And yet, no problem there!
And finaly, when you will use it, there is litteraly not even single sign of any discomfort, or other health problems nor threatening your life. laugh Maybe except one evening of sickness, that is miraculously cured til next morning. laugh

And after all, you can even talk with friendly mind flayer, who clearly tells you that your tadpole is different, and that even he have no idea how this will work, since he didnt ever seen anything simmilar ... who else could give you relevant information, if not their own kind?


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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