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Riandor #734991 16/11/20 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Riandor
Well you could if that approve or disapprove stayed on the screen long enough 😜.

Yeah Astarion is of course happier with the darker side of things, but he’s not hard to keep moderately happy. Heck maybe I got away with all those good things by letting him feed on me! Haha.

I have nothing against Astarion at all actually, I personally just feel there could also be someone a little more twisted in camp. I actually thought it might have been the resurrect dude who hangs around camp, but no (not yet at any rate).


Like I say maybe he's 'happy' only cuz he still can use you. But this is still a good deal, then every good/kind character can get a "knife in the back" later. Worse, if there is a situation like was with Sebille. Their stories are too similar... Hmm


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
Vhaldez #735000 16/11/20 09:14 AM
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Asterion strikes me as a "I will saw the branch we are all standing on because altruism is for losers" brand of evil companion. It seems he approves of pretty much every single act of cruelty, no matter how petty and counterproductive, and disapproves of nearly all good acts, even if they benefit you. There are even a few evil acts he disapproves of if you do not take the requisite amount of sadistic glee in it, such as if you raise Mayrina's husband as a zombie and do not find it amusing.

More on topic.

Kagha's child killing scene. I found it mustache-twirlingly evil. Very in my face. Honestly, especially since the game gives her a route of redemption, I found it all rather unnecessary. Her redemption, to me, feels far more believable if the kid is not killed off.

To me, the attitude of the druids, especially how Kagha took control, seems very disconnected from how events actually are. From the way the adventurers and Zevlor spoke of it, it sounds Halsin has been out on a stroll for a few days at most. The druids, however, speak as if Halsin has been gone for months. Considering how xenophilic Halsin seemed to be, how did Kagha so quickly turn every single druid to her side? They only learned that Halsin is MIA minutes after you show up at the grove. It was not like he was off on some suicide mission, he was expected to return up until then. How did they decide that all hope is lost and to fire up the ritual in that small a time frame?

ArmouredHedgehog #735013 16/11/20 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
Kagha does have a point. Maybe the devs could improve her character by offering a clearer explanation why the refugee situation is unsustainable. If the druids are truly in a desperate situation it would make the choice of the player even harder
I don't know if Kagha is supposed to have a point. The story does everything in its power to present her has obviously in the wrong and the refugees are;
  • Constantly about to leave
  • Fending off monsters on their own while the Druids perform the fuck off ritual
  • Chalked up as the "good" side in a conflict where the "bad" side is an outside force bent on destroying everyone, including the Druids

Moreover, Olodan and her cabal are another outside force independent of the Absolute trying to do evil that you cannot side with. In the best case scenario when Kagha is outed but spared and Olodan is killed, the grove is still as xenophobic as ever. Only Kagha herself can have a change of heart, but her brothers and sisters remain resentful. It's almost as if Halsin is completely in the wrong about everything he believes and totally ignorant of the reality he finds himself in. It would be bizarre and hilarious to have him come clean about this when he joins your camp, that he basically goes: "whew, finally got out of that rat's nest, I had no control whatshowever" and then Apukisis' corpse falls out of the sky.

And then there's this.
[Linked Image]
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Originally Posted by Ari
To me, the attitude of the druids, especially how Kagha took control, seems very disconnected from how events actually are. From the way the adventurers and Zevlor spoke of it, it sounds Halsin has been out on a stroll for a few days at most. The druids, however, speak as if Halsin has been gone for months. Considering how xenophilic Halsin seemed to be, how did Kagha so quickly turn every single druid to her side? They only learned that Halsin is MIA minutes after you show up at the grove. It was not like he was off on some suicide mission, he was expected to return up until then. How did they decide that all hope is lost and to fire up the ritual in that small a time frame?
All good points. What timeframe is this even taking place in? The more you investigate Halsin's circle the more it seems like he is lying to you about his beliefs and style of leadership, but the game makes no effort to present this as an option to you. We can only assume he is lying because we have knowledge the player character does not and can infer a conclusion based on that, but that doesn't fly in the game itself.

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I think the time frame is a few days, at most a week. The only evidence I really know of is the druid who mentions that they had been chanting for days, after you stop the ritual. I believe, in regards to Halsin, it went something along the lines that he went out a few days before you arrive but became MIA when the mercs returned. The xenophobia and poor leadership timeframe can only be guessed at, I don't think there are any hard facts given with that stuff. Though it is evident that Halsin was more interested in dealing with the Shadow curse rather than managing his grove. With what can be gathered it paints an image that Halsin is not a good leader. The fact that the shadow druids either swept in right under his nose or were able to get in and usurp control within days is not a good sign. Considering how quickly they got operation Thorn Shield going there was obviously a lot of festering resentment going on within the grove. With Kagha, I'm fairly certain she is supposed to be someone who was poorly trained, has a lot of resentment and was easily open to manipulation. Hence our ability to talk her out her decisions as easily as she seemed to have been talked into them*.

*Easy being relative to your luck with the gods of RNG.

The killing of the child comes across, and I'm pretty sure I've already stated it in this thread, more as a fuck up rather than a "muahahaa I'm so evil" vibe. If they were going for mustache evil than she would have simply ordered the snake to kill the kid. Not like Rath was actually going to do anything other than cry about it, its all dumb evil.

Vhaldez #735466 17/11/20 10:05 AM
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From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?

Vhaldez #735469 17/11/20 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?



Yes, also those tieflings. If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.

Vhaldez #735472 17/11/20 10:16 AM
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I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
Vhaldez #735477 17/11/20 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?


At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.

Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.

Last edited by Ari; 17/11/20 10:35 AM.
OneManArmy #735483 17/11/20 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ari
At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.
Like I said before I feel like Halsin is going to come clean about not having bothered to lead the grove for untold years at some point in the future. That or the shadow druids have put everyone under some kind of spell.
Originally Posted by Abits
I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?
I would not be surprised if that was true, but even then the behaviour of the normal druids is inexcusable. I think part of the reason why this all feels so unnatural is that Larian (and maybe FR lore in general) has turned druids into member associations with uniforms and a rank and file. When three mice show up at your doorstep and your interim head druid is seen conversing with them in secret, should that not ring any alarm bells? Can these shadow druids invade any grove of their choosing and subvert their leadership like this without anyone noticing? Does this happen more often?
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.
I would like that, but I feel that is not what Larian wants to go for. The druids are a one-off Act 1 thing and the Tieflings will almost definitely follow you through the rest of the game, so there is no room for a difficult choice like that here.
Originally Posted by Ari
Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.
I know I should not make up headcanon or speculate on indev content, but it seems to me that the game foreshadows really hard that if Kagha is demoted by Halsin without exposing the shadow druid cabal she will eventually stage a full on coup and throw the grove into darkness. If she is not outed she has zero respect for Halsin and gives him a real evil eyed look that says "Olodan will come for you later" to me.

Not that it would matter to Halsin since he is a blowhard that bails on "politics" to hang out with us instead, lol.


Last edited by Vhaldez; 17/11/20 10:40 AM.
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remove the child murdering scene when you first meet her


Kagha disapproves

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Vhaldez #736353 19/11/20 09:39 AM
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#JusticeForArabella

Vhaldez #736432 19/11/20 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Ari
At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.
Like I said before I feel like Halsin is going to come clean about not having bothered to lead the grove for untold years at some point in the future. That or the shadow druids have put everyone under some kind of spell.
Originally Posted by Abits
I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?
I would not be surprised if that was true, but even then the behaviour of the normal druids is inexcusable. I think part of the reason why this all feels so unnatural is that Larian (and maybe FR lore in general) has turned druids into member associations with uniforms and a rank and file. When three mice show up at your doorstep and your interim head druid is seen conversing with them in secret, should that not ring any alarm bells? Can these shadow druids invade any grove of their choosing and subvert their leadership like this without anyone noticing? Does this happen more often?
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.
I would like that, but I feel that is not what Larian wants to go for. The druids are a one-off Act 1 thing and the Tieflings will almost definitely follow you through the rest of the game, so there is no room for a difficult choice like that here.
Originally Posted by Ari
Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.
I know I should not make up headcanon or speculate on indev content, but it seems to me that the game foreshadows really hard that if Kagha is demoted by Halsin without exposing the shadow druid cabal she will eventually stage a full on coup and throw the grove into darkness. If she is not outed she has zero respect for Halsin and gives him a real evil eyed look that says "Olodan will come for you later" to me.

Not that it would matter to Halsin since he is a blowhard that bails on "politics" to hang out with us instead, lol.



There is a lot of content about the druids in the manuals of the past edition but for the most part they tend to follow the Deity a Circle is affiliated on. In this case Silvanus. Even Evil allingment Silvanus druids are perfectly fine. Silvanus is a neutral divinity this means it also accept Evil followers. Druids are not a Bioware invention what Bioware did is take the Lorde of the Forgotten Realms.


And again being Tiefling does not necessarily mean be evil. It means that there is demonic blood or devil blood in to ancestry but they all have a thing in common they are not well accepted around because of their bloodline are often not trusted or even shunned. Many of them end to become bandits or criminal because of this rather than their ancestry.

Halsin is good alligned. Khaga is leaning toward Evil on top of that is being manipulated from the shadow druids.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.

Bossk_Hogg #736722 20/11/20 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.
The story would be better without dark druids. All of the citations referring to them on the FR wiki are BG2 and BG3 self-references, so Abits was right about them being made up by Bioware.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.
The story would be better without dark druids. All of the citations referring to them on the FR wiki are BG2 and BG3 self-references, so Abits was right about them being made up by Bioware.

It's been a while since I've played the original games, but I don't recall any talk about shadow druids being made up by Bioware. Searching for "shadow circle" does bring up references outside of the BG games, but I don't play pnp so no idea what is official material or not.

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Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?

Last edited by Sadurian; 20/11/20 02:53 PM.
Sadurian #736979 20/11/20 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?
I meant the specific type of druid called "Shadow Druid" that is tied to that druid from BG2, most of the Shadow Druid lore and indeed the order where the Shadow Druids in BG3 originate from ties into the games and not any older FR lore.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?
I meant the specific type of druid called "Shadow Druid" that is tied to that druid from BG2, most of the Shadow Druid lore and indeed the order where the Shadow Druids in BG3 originate from ties into the games and not any older FR lore.

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on; I guess the devs came up with calling them "shadow druids", but they didn't invent the concept. While neutral in alignment, their actions would often be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.They were also a hidden circle that infiltrated other druidic circles trying to convert them to their side.

Last edited by ash elemental; 20/11/20 08:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.

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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.

Sorry, I just edited my post for clarification. They are not hiding in BG3, they are infiltrating the circle, trying to take over; this is their main goal. Nature's fury and so on, this is what Faldorn used to be about in BG1 too.

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