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Zellin Offline OP
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Hello again, dear Larian
After some thinking I decided that it would be better to leave my first thread only for gameplay suggestions. There are 2 pages already and while some gameplay elements may affect each other, the story is somewhat separate thing. And let’s start with…

2 elephants in the room.

1. The custom character (CC) importance.
After quite a lot of thinking I realized that it doesn't matter how much you untie the origins from the main plot, it doesn't matter how much you tone down their stories, the problem just is not really in them. We had quite a lot of oh-so-special companions in other RPGs. The only difference is that we couldn't take them as our own character that doesn't really matter in comparing their importance with our main character's importance there. So it's the CC himself lacking his own upsides added in the plot. And here my thoughts on how it can be changed without taking away the freedom to have whatever backstory for our CCs in our heads:
1.1. Add the very special connection to the main plot only for the custom character.
It should be something the character himself couldn’t know before the main plot came into motion. Maybe he was observed by The Absolute before, got favored and now he has a different kind of tadpole that gives him special powers over the rest of tadpole users. Maybe he has some relation with whoever The Absolute is (yes, that’s somewhat BG1 all over again, but still better than being Tav-named nobody).
1.2. Make the custom character the only one type of glue to paste them all together for companions as continuation of those special tadpole powers.
You have Lae’zel and Shadowheart hating each other, Astarion being so paranoid that aggressive at the first meeting, Gale jumping on our character from the teleport, Wyll fighting goblins before becoming the part of our party. At the moment it all may become fatal for them, but we pass our checks and everything is fine. So let’s imagine that no one but the very special person with the very special tadpole and maybe Wyll can persuade Lae’zel and Shadowheart to put their differences aside, no one but that person and maybe Gale can deal with Astarion in a non-lethal way, and so on. As an option to make it not so harsh on players it may be just different DC for the checks. Also it may be partially based on companions classes, in such a way that we would always get a viable party.
1.3. Additionally maybe… I know it’s tons of work… but add a small level for the custom character before Avernus as a flashback of his normal day. And then a personal quest that involves someone he knew before.
The flashback level should be based on our choice of race and background. It will exist only to establish a connection between our character and a few NPC. The character has his normal no-adventures day and meets some friends/rivals/mentors. It should be short dialogs starting with the narrator characterising the NPC for us and us choosing the relationships. Like this:
N: Here comes Charles as pompous as always. Just a local thug, he never knew when to stop adoring himself. But some people think it’s just a part of his specific sense of humor, which many find amusing. You…
P: 1. …never liked this jerk. 2. … always were good friends with him, knowing that’s the humor for sure. 3. …never really paid too much attention to him. 4. …learned a lot from him.
After that the story should proceed mostly as normal. But at some point we should meet the same characters being somehow involved in the whole situation with The Absolute or any other suitable disaster.
1.4. One more big “maybe”… put some restrictions based on their temper for Origins as the player characters in single-player.
That’s the last resort and maybe probably will be hated by many players, but at the same time it’s logical. If we are taking the role of Shadowheart on ourselves, we should role-play Shadowheart with all her specifics (like hating Lae’zel and not willing to take her in the group for example). Same with each one of them.

2. Goblins, tieflings, druids and 1 drow.
Shortly, since it was said many times on this forum: siding with Minthara and goblins doesn’t make any sense from the self-preservation point of view. What I didn’t see yet is solutions aside from “rewrite everything” and anyone mentioning that the Halsin part of the plot falls in the same direction after some point.While Halsin is actually the key to the whole problem. And here how to use this key:
2.1. Make Halsin much more useful for our pass through the Underdark.
He may possess some more vital information than the position of one of many entrances. He may be an additional or locked powerful companion for our Underdark adventure. He may have contacts in the Underdark. Without him going to the Moonrise towers through the Underdark must be pretty much as suicidal as going there through the surface without Minthara’s contact.
2.2. Make Halsin confess that he can’t heal us and we need to go to the Moonrise towers the moment we find him, not after killing all the goblins' leaders. But he should also tell that he has means to assist us, he just wants us to make sure that the Grove isn't threated first.
2.3. Make Minthara say for sure that her next stop is the Moonrise towers and she’s ready to take us with her by the safe surface route if we assist her.

And that’s it. Now they both provide the same thing in 2 different forms, we know it in advance and it’s pure moral choice.

Last edited by Zellin; 22/11/20 10:09 PM. Reason: typo
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As someone who is not yet done writing a big feedback report (and the completion seems to get closer at a very slow pace), I'm happy to see other big feedback reports coming up.


I'm on a very different side when it comes to the Specialness of the custom PC though (point 1.1)

I'd really like the PC (full custom, semi-custom or Origins character), and the companions, to not be so special. Special One stories are boring (in my opinion). We've seen it from Baldur's Gate 1-2 to Star Wars (with Episode 9 more recently) to every second big adventure in between. Of course the characters triumph in the end : they're Special Ones.

I think it's also great to have 4 adventurers around a table, with no one being More Special than the others, and not being Special at all. In the Forgotten Realms, companies of adventurers become heroes on a regular basis, through a great adventure or three. Our tadpole-induced adventure is just one such adventure.


Point 1.4 is an interesting one.

Given that Larian has already assigned personalities and goals to all the Origins companions, which we can observe if we don't play as them but instead recruit them, it raises the question of how much we can really roleplay them if we take them as PC.

I suppose Larian can try to find a balance. Leaving some aspects of their personalities open to interpretation/modification by the player, while maintaining some sense. That may include some restrictions on some dialogue options. (I wonder if Shadowheart could even recruit Lae'zel ...) My guess is that most people who will pick an Origins Character won't be so interested in roleplaying as they will be interested in living the adventure and discovering the main story. Very much in the style of what JRPG typically do.

Anyway, I won't play an Origins Character, so I'm just interested in this from a great, theoretical distance.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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Personally i do not have a problem with not having some great backstory integrated in the game. Maybe there are others that think the same. I understand your point though.

Look at the plot and narration there are SO many Issues to fix. Especially the interaction between the characters, the characters and the story and the consistency of that. Just 2 examples:

Playing a cleric i decided not to take shadowheart into the group and found her fiddling with that gith cube-weapon. I succeded my arkana and saw it for a gith artifact. After that all chars seem to simply forget that. The encounter with the gith patrol is mainly about that thing but you can't even mention it.
Same when you find her fiddling with it in camp, either before of after the encounter with the kith'rak.

After the fight against the gith i picked up the slate, used it and the conversation with laezel takes place. After that you talk to her about the encounter. "let's find the creche we just located 1 min before".


Things like this are strewn all over that EA atm. If you do not follow exactly the order larian has planned out you will get those moments. I am not sure if adding another plot would help that. Also we do not know how far they are into writing the story for the coming chapters. Integrating more into that might be difficult.
BG3 is pretty blown up in some aspects already, even if it limits some of my options i would rather have a consistent, working game than a work of art á la "bethesda", meaning unfinished and buggy in the end.

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Definitely with OP on point 2 re: Halsin and the goblins.

I actually really like not having the main character be the most Extra Special Snowflake that Ever Snowflaked, I think it's a really nice change from a lot of modern RPGs, and gives the game a fresh feel. It also helps with making the original ship crew feel more like a unit and helps me invest in all of their survival and stories. That being said, I really like OP's point 1.3, though I'd be perfectly content with a written prologue that matches the custom character creation choices—having a glimpse of normal life would help anchor the player's attachment to the character. It would also get around the impression that they just came into being the second they were nabbed by the mind flayers.

Perhaps another good compromise would be to use dialogue with other NPCs or the narrator's voice to let the player steer who their character was before the game started, without clogging the plotline with it or requiring more cutscenes or playable areas. It does this to a certain degree already, of course, but having a sort of "who were you before it all started" question from the NPCs would also balance those interactions where the player character asks them questions about their background but they don't ask anything back.

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Originally Posted by Gibberling
Definitely with OP on point 2 re: Halsin and the goblins.

I actually really like not having the main character be the most Extra Special Snowflake that Ever Snowflaked, I think it's a really nice change from a lot of modern RPGs, and gives the game a fresh feel. It also helps with making the original ship crew feel more like a unit and helps me invest in all of their survival and stories. That being said, I really like OP's point 1.3, though I'd be perfectly content with a written prologue that matches the custom character creation choices—having a glimpse of normal life would help anchor the player's attachment to the character. It would also get around the impression that they just came into being the second they were nabbed by the mind flayers.

Perhaps another good compromise would be to use dialogue with other NPCs or the narrator's voice to let the player steer who their character was before the game started, without clogging the plotline with it or requiring more cutscenes or playable areas. It does this to a certain degree already, of course, but having a sort of "who were you before it all started" question from the NPCs would also balance those interactions where the player character asks them questions about their background but they don't ask anything back.


+1

Absolutely. I think it is far more meaningful to rise from obscurity and create a reputation, for good or ill, which will then provoke reactivity within the game. Whether it results in hostility or praise, ambushes or extra quests, the more variation and more accurately it reflections player determination the better

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Zellin Offline OP
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To all above: while I understand from where you coming there is one problem by my opinion and as far as I saw not only my.
Larian already started things as being epic and us surrounded by all the epic stuff and epic companions. And that's what creates a bit of a plot hole if our character is total nobody. Why those epic guys listening to nobody and calling him/her their leader?
I'm not suggesting to stress till it will become annoying that our character is special too, but close that gap between the world around epic and our character epic.
I can imagine somewhat opposite approach: show more clear how our CC struggles to lead our companions. But that may not work for some players' head-canon backstories.

Personally I'm fine with both options as long as their implementation comes at high quality.

Last edited by Zellin; 23/11/20 04:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by Zellin
To all above: while I understand from where you coming there is one problem by my opinion and as far as I saw not only my.
Larian already started things as being epic and us surrounded by all the epic stuff and epic companions. And that's what creates a bit of a plot hole if our character is total nobody. Why those epic guys listening to nobody and calling him/her their leader?
I'm not suggesting to stress till it will become annoying that our character is special too, but close that gap between the world around epic and our character epic.
I can imagine somewhat opposite approach: show more clear how our CC struggles to lead our companions. But that may not work for some players' head-canon backstories.

Personally I'm fine with both options as long as their implementation comes at high quality.


One question:

Do you really know that the CC has no epic story? Maybe we get a reveal later on that explains his/her role in all of this. Maybe without our CC character nothing of this would have happened?

Maybe a bit far fetched but not impossible laugh

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Zellin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Originally Posted by Zellin
To all above: while I understand from where you coming there is one problem by my opinion and as far as I saw not only my.
Larian already started things as being epic and us surrounded by all the epic stuff and epic companions. And that's what creates a bit of a plot hole if our character is total nobody. Why those epic guys listening to nobody and calling him/her their leader?
I'm not suggesting to stress till it will become annoying that our character is special too, but close that gap between the world around epic and our character epic.
I can imagine somewhat opposite approach: show more clear how our CC struggles to lead our companions. But that may not work for some players' head-canon backstories.

Personally I'm fine with both options as long as their implementation comes at high quality.


One question:

Do you really know that the CC has no epic story? Maybe we get a reveal later on that explains his/her role in all of this. Maybe without our CC character nothing of this would have happened?

Maybe a bit far fetched but not impossible laugh

I'm composing my suggestions based on what I'm seeing in the BG3 game now. Not playing the game "guess what Larian already have implemented, just later".

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Originally Posted by Zellin
To all above: while I understand from where you coming there is one problem by my opinion and as far as I saw not only my.
Larian already started things as being epic and us surrounded by all the epic stuff and epic companions. And that's what creates a bit of a plot hole if our character is total nobody. Why those epic guys listening to nobody and calling him/her their leader?
I'm not suggesting to stress till it will become annoying that our character is special too, but close that gap between the world around epic and our character epic.
I can imagine somewhat opposite approach: show more clear how our CC struggles to lead our companions. But that may not work for some players' head-canon backstories.

Personally I'm fine with both options as long as their implementation comes at high quality.


One question:

Do you really know that the CC has no epic story? Maybe we get a reveal later on that explains his/her role in all of this. Maybe without our CC character nothing of this would have happened?

Maybe a bit far fetched but not impossible laugh

I'm composing my suggestions based on what I'm seeing in the BG3 game now. Not playing the game "guess what Larian already have implemented, just later".


You are right of course. It was just a line of thought. In addition i would think that revealing a plot regarding our char so late ingame is meh. Really sad that we have so little feedback from larian in these forums.
They could steer the whole discussion way better if they took part or at least stop discussions about things that are not happening and encourage discussions about changes they do plan.

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I think, from playing a bit more, that based on some of the dialogues the CC does have something that distinguishes them from the others.

[spoilers]

Some of the commentary one gets about the Absolute if you play as a Drow and how some of the baddies react to your CC, (hinting at the idea that you're some kind of chosen one beyond the actual True Soul aspect of it) makes me think that there's going to be something akin to how you find out you're Bhaalspawn in the previous games. So I think the "Epicness" might very well be there already, but not revealed for a bit, and I've feeling it might not be a pleasant discovery. 😂 Which would be in the tradition of the older BG games, or similar RPGs like Planescape Torment. So my guess would be still Special, but not in a good way. If that's the case, then frankly I'd appreciate that kind of trope subversion of the typical Chosen One YA flavor — IMHO of course.

I'd still love a little "everyday routine" prologue.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
1.1. Add the very special connection to the main plot only for the custom character.
It should be something the character himself couldn’t know before the main plot came into motion. Maybe he was observed by The Absolute before, got favored and now he has a different kind of tadpole that gives him special powers over the rest of tadpole users. Maybe he has some relation with whoever The Absolute is (yes, that’s somewhat BG1 all over again, but still better than being Tav-named nobody).

But your character DO have a different kind of tadpole ...
Its mentioned in underdark, if you let that hopgoblin asociate to examine you ... he specificly say that "this larva power is beyond everything i ever seen" (or something like that) ... and when you do, you get another special power from tadpole, that others dont have.

That is not enough to you? O_o

Originally Posted by Zellin
1.2. Make the custom character the only one type of glue to paste them all together for companions as continuation of those special tadpole powers.
You have Lae’zel and Shadowheart hating each other, Astarion being so paranoid that aggressive at the first meeting, Gale jumping on our character from the teleport, Wyll fighting goblins before becoming the part of our party. At the moment it all may become fatal for them, but we pass our checks and everything is fine. So let’s imagine that no one but the very special person with the very special tadpole and maybe Wyll can persuade Lae’zel and Shadowheart to put their differences aside, no one but that person and maybe Gale can deal with Astarion in a non-lethal way, and so on. As an option to make it not so harsh on players it may be just different DC for the checks. Also it may be partially based on companions classes, in such a way that we would always get a viable party.

I think this is also quite inplemented allready ...
No companion ever question any of your decision, yes they disagree silently ... yet they follow you, no matter of their own moral compas.
Great example here is wiping out whole druid groove. laugh

I know its "only" game mechanic ...
But if you played KotOR II. (recomended, if you didnt) they were specificly using game mechanic to story.
So your character (in KotOR i mean) had ability to create strong influence bonds with others trough the Force, so they follow him (almost) without question ... also funny part was there for good jedi, when you were in end of the game asked if you even realize how many people have you killed just to get here, and yet you dare to say that Dark side have no influence on you?

I see some similarity here. smile

Originally Posted by Zellin
1.3. Additionally maybe… I know it’s tons of work… but add a small level for the custom character before Avernus as a flashback of his normal day. And then a personal quest that involves someone he knew before.
The flashback level should be based on our choice of race and background. It will exist only to establish a connection between our character and a few NPC. The character has his normal no-adventures day and meets some friends/rivals/mentors. It should be short dialogs starting with the narrator characterising the NPC for us and us choosing the relationships. Like this:
N: Here comes Charles as pompous as always. Just a local thug, he never knew when to stop adoring himself. But some people think it’s just a part of his specific sense of humor, which many find amusing. You…
P: 1. …never liked this jerk. 2. … always were good friends with him, knowing that’s the humor for sure. 3. …never really paid too much attention to him. 4. …learned a lot from him.
After that the story should proceed mostly as normal. But at some point we should meet the same characters being somehow involved in the whole situation with The Absolute or any other suitable disaster.

I love this! :3

Originally Posted by Zellin
2.1. Make Halsin much more useful for our pass through the Underdark.
He may possess some more vital information than the position of one of many entrances. He may be an additional or locked powerful companion for our Underdark adventure. He may have contacts in the Underdark. Without him going to the Moonrise towers through the Underdark must be pretty much as suicidal as going there through the surface without Minthara’s contact.

If Halsin allready known position of any entrance, he would not join that adventurers to find it ... therefore he would not be captured, therefore he would not be here for us to find. :-/
I believe that Halsin should be made a companion ... many people will probably hate it, bcs he would be then 4 level "archdruid" ... yet, im not even sure if this game count with nontadpoled companions.
Simmilar to "contracts" ... you cant quite create any allies somewhere, if you have no idea how to get there. smile
We dont know yet how will path to Moonrise towers lookalike ... so i would let that part go.

Originally Posted by Zellin
2.2. Make Halsin confess that he can’t heal us and we need to go to the Moonrise towers the moment we find him, not after killing all the goblins' leaders. But he should also tell that he has means to assist us, he just wants us to make sure that the Grove isn't threated first.

Well ... he does, but the way he does it now, he makes sure you will help him ...
In your way that is just chance, and since he really cares about groove, i get that he would not take chances here. :-/

Originally Posted by Zellin
2.3. Make Minthara say for sure that her next stop is the Moonrise towers and she’s ready to take us with her by the safe surface route if we assist her.

That would also completely change her character ...
But since first patch alterning story is coming, that could also be allready ruined. frown


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Zellin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
1.1. Add the very special connection to the main plot only for the custom character.
It should be something the character himself couldn’t know before the main plot came into motion. Maybe he was observed by The Absolute before, got favored and now he has a different kind of tadpole that gives him special powers over the rest of tadpole users. Maybe he has some relation with whoever The Absolute is (yes, that’s somewhat BG1 all over again, but still better than being Tav-named nobody).

But your character DO have a different kind of tadpole ...
Its mentioned in underdark, if you let that hopgoblin asociate to examine you ... he specificly say that "this larva power is beyond everything i ever seen" (or something like that) ... and when you do, you get another special power from tadpole, that others dont have.

That is not enough to you? O_o

It's not special tadpole compared to our companions' tadpole, I'm talking about special compared to companions. At the moment we, all companions and some villains have the same exact tadpole in shadow-magic stasis.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
1.2. Make the custom character the only one type of glue to paste them all together for companions as continuation of those special tadpole powers.
You have Lae’zel and Shadowheart hating each other, Astarion being so paranoid that aggressive at the first meeting, Gale jumping on our character from the teleport, Wyll fighting goblins before becoming the part of our party. At the moment it all may become fatal for them, but we pass our checks and everything is fine. So let’s imagine that no one but the very special person with the very special tadpole and maybe Wyll can persuade Lae’zel and Shadowheart to put their differences aside, no one but that person and maybe Gale can deal with Astarion in a non-lethal way, and so on. As an option to make it not so harsh on players it may be just different DC for the checks. Also it may be partially based on companions classes, in such a way that we would always get a viable party.

I think this is also quite inplemented allready ...
No companion ever question any of your decision, yes they disagree silently ... yet they follow you, no matter of their own moral compas.
Great example here is wiping out whole druid groove. laugh

I know its "only" game mechanic ...
But if you played KotOR II. (recomended, if you didnt) they were specificly using game mechanic to story.
So your character (in KotOR i mean) had ability to create strong influence bonds with others trough the Force, so they follow him (almost) without question ... also funny part was there for good jedi, when you were in end of the game asked if you even realize how many people have you killed just to get here, and yet you dare to say that Dark side have no influence on you?

I see some similarity here. smile

And again I'm talking about one thing, you're talking about another thing.
There is a big difference between "Who the hell are you to command me?" and "Boohoo... our glorious leader made decision I don't like. I gonna be grumpy now and maybe eons later I'll leave him."

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
2.1. Make Halsin much more useful for our pass through the Underdark.
He may possess some more vital information than the position of one of many entrances. He may be an additional or locked powerful companion for our Underdark adventure. He may have contacts in the Underdark. Without him going to the Moonrise towers through the Underdark must be pretty much as suicidal as going there through the surface without Minthara’s contact.

If Halsin allready known position of any entrance, he would not join that adventurers to find it ... therefore he would not be captured, therefore he would not be here for us to find. :-/
I believe that Halsin should be made a companion ... many people will probably hate it, bcs he would be then 4 level "archdruid" ... yet, im not even sure if this game count with nontadpoled companions.
Simmilar to "contracts" ... you cant quite create any allies somewhere, if you have no idea how to get there. smile
We dont know yet how will path to Moonrise towers lookalike ... so i would let that part go.

Originally Posted by Zellin
2.2. Make Halsin confess that he can’t heal us and we need to go to the Moonrise towers the moment we find him, not after killing all the goblins' leaders. But he should also tell that he has means to assist us, he just wants us to make sure that the Grove isn't threated first.

Well ... he does, but the way he does it now, he makes sure you will help him ...
In your way that is just chance, and since he really cares about groove, i get that he would not take chances here. :-/

What chances? He is valuable for our party by 2.1. He can literally say: "If you'll go without me, you'll die."

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
2.3. Make Minthara say for sure that her next stop is the Moonrise towers and she’s ready to take us with her by the safe surface route if we assist her.

That would also completely change her character ...
But since first patch alterning story is coming, that could also be allready ruined. frown

And how exactly it will completely change her character? She still can lie. At the moment when she asks to assist her, she says that we will be rewarded by The Absolute, it's logical that we would need to go to it to get our reward.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
It's not special tadpole compared to our companions' tadpole, I'm talking about special compared to companions. At the moment we, all companions and some villains have the same exact tadpole in shadow-magic stasis.

Dunno ...
Yes, all our tadpoles are in same shadow-magic stasis ...
Yes, all our tadpoles allow us to peer in someone else tadpoled mind ...
Yes, all our tadpoles allow us to dominant weak minded creatures ...

But im affraid that is where simmilarity ends. :-/

Every tadpole give us unique abilities (wich depends on our class, so unless you play Warlock with another Warlock in your party for some reason, you can feel unique) .
Also when you tell Omeluum about your tadpole, and drinks his potion, he specificly tells you that "this" tadpole is much stronger than anything he ever see ... and he is talking about your tadpole particular ... true, you can screw this by talking with different character, but that is then your fault ... since this conversation cannot be repeated, it seem to me quite clear that one person in party should have at least impression of stronger tadpole. laugh Also, after this you (i mean that character that will talk to him) get another unique ability.
And last but not least, we are addressed in our tadpole dreams as "chosen one" ... that itself have kinda special wibe in mine opinion ... ofc. we will probably be called chosen one even in our companion dreams, when we will be able to play as origin characters, but that is different in mine opinion, since then they are main protagonist.

Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
1.2. Make the custom character the only one type of glue to paste them all together for companions as continuation of those special tadpole powers.
You have Lae’zel and Shadowheart hating each other, Astarion being so paranoid that aggressive at the first meeting, Gale jumping on our character from the teleport, Wyll fighting goblins before becoming the part of our party. At the moment it all may become fatal for them, but we pass our checks and everything is fine. So let’s imagine that no one but the very special person with the very special tadpole and maybe Wyll can persuade Lae’zel and Shadowheart to put their differences aside, no one but that person and maybe Gale can deal with Astarion in a non-lethal way, and so on. As an option to make it not so harsh on players it may be just different DC for the checks. Also it may be partially based on companions classes, in such a way that we would always get a viable party.

I think this is also quite inplemented allready ...
No companion ever question any of your decision, yes they disagree silently ... yet they follow you, no matter of their own moral compas.
Great example here is wiping out whole druid groove. laugh

I know its "only" game mechanic ...
But if you played KotOR II. (recomended, if you didnt) they were specificly using game mechanic to story.
So your character (in KotOR i mean) had ability to create strong influence bonds with others trough the Force, so they follow him (almost) without question ... also funny part was there for good jedi, when you were in end of the game asked if you even realize how many people have you killed just to get here, and yet you dare to say that Dark side have no influence on you?

I see some similarity here. smile

And again I'm talking about one thing, you're talking about another thing.
There is a big difference between "Who the hell are you to command me?" and "Boohoo... our glorious leader made decision I don't like. I gonna be grumpy now and maybe eons later I'll leave him."

I never questioned this difference ...

It seemed to me like in our original post, you wanted to use your protagonist tadpole to calm things between Shadowheart and Lae'zel ... so they follow you both and dont go on each other throat.
And i feel that this is allready happening, its just not specificly mentioned, since they both follow you ... they still dont like each other, and have their isues with each other ... but they are both following your orders, no matter how much they dont like it.
Maybe im wrong, but i believe if Shadowhearth would meet Lae'zel just by herself, she would kill her on sight (since she sugests it) ... but since your character with his/hers special tadpole, that is allready subtile alterning her behaviour, is around ... she not just satisfly with your character desicion, she submits to it, even if she disagree.

I simply mentioned another game where whole time was something happening without telling, just to be revealed on the end as big surprise.
And i loved it honestly.

Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
2.1. Make Halsin much more useful for our pass through the Underdark.
He may possess some more vital information than the position of one of many entrances. He may be an additional or locked powerful companion for our Underdark adventure. He may have contacts in the Underdark. Without him going to the Moonrise towers through the Underdark must be pretty much as suicidal as going there through the surface without Minthara’s contact.

If Halsin allready known position of any entrance, he would not join that adventurers to find it ... therefore he would not be captured, therefore he would not be here for us to find. :-/
I believe that Halsin should be made a companion ... many people will probably hate it, bcs he would be then 4 level "archdruid" ... yet, im not even sure if this game count with nontadpoled companions.
Simmilar to "contracts" ... you cant quite create any allies somewhere, if you have no idea how to get there. smile
We dont know yet how will path to Moonrise towers lookalike ... so i would let that part go.

Originally Posted by Zellin
2.2. Make Halsin confess that he can’t heal us and we need to go to the Moonrise towers the moment we find him, not after killing all the goblins' leaders. But he should also tell that he has means to assist us, he just wants us to make sure that the Grove isn't threated first.

Well ... he does, but the way he does it now, he makes sure you will help him ...
In your way that is just chance, and since he really cares about groove, i get that he would not take chances here. :-/

What chances? He is valuable for our party by 2.1. He can literally say: "If you'll go without me, you'll die."

Chances on you helping him kill goblin leaders ...
If Halsin will be alterned as you sugest ... so he tells you where find entrance to underdark, and that there is way to moonrise towers, and offer you his help with reaching them, even if he mention that going there solo would be suicide ... you still can choose to simply go without him.

So from his perspective, keeping those things secret was right move ...
He teases you with that he knows answers you seek, but also mentions that he will provide them as reward for your halp, not a moment sooner. That way he simply ensures that you will help him with his problem.
I could see some hard (dif. 18-20) persuation rollcheck like "first tell me what do you know, then i decide if this is worth my time" to be honest, but he should certainly not tell you everything and then hope for your good hearth.

Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zellin
2.3. Make Minthara say for sure that her next stop is the Moonrise towers and she’s ready to take us with her by the safe surface route if we assist her.

That would also completely change her character ...
But since first patch alterning story is coming, that could also be allready ruined. frown

And how exactly it will completely change her character? She still can lie. At the moment when she asks to assist her, she says that we will be rewarded by The Absolute, it's logical that we would need to go to it to get our reward.

Same as with Halsin ... she tells us just "need to know basics" if she reveals anything more, she will act foolishly, since she thiner chances of her sucess ...

Right now she want to use us, possibly get rid of us by the process, and if that will not work, she try to get rid of us personaly ... only in that situation, when we play our cards right she start to have at least slight motivation to actualy help us.

If she reveals all this information to us in the first interview, our character may immediately lose all interest in helping her, because we simply has no reason to do so anymore. At that moment, we knows everything we needs and, as with Halsin, even though we suspects that the trip could be dangerous, we can decide to just try it.

So how exactly it will completely change her character?
She sudently changed from inteligent, cold, calculative b**ch, who just wants to use us ... to foolish person, who simply talks too much and ruins hers own chances for sucess.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Sep 2020
Zellin Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
<...>

I'll shorten my answer to "you have very interesting way of interpreting things". The last part about Minthara... ouch And let's stop at this. I really don't feel like going through detailed explanation for every little bit.


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