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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Abits

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First of all. This game,, even though it might become great, is not the best thing since slized bread. It's a crpg. The third iteration in its series. People that haven't been interested in crpgs before have absoluly no reason becoming interested in this one. Not when the title has the number "3" in it. Some people might pick it up based on hype in media but not the majority. The majority of players bying this game will be people that has either fond memories of earlier Baldur's Gate games, likes D&D/fantasy crpgs or liked Larians previous releases and hopes this will have the same quality.

Without proper data you can't know for sure you are right. Honestly I'm not sure you are


I can ofc be wrong, I'm not all knowing. But from a logic point of view...why would someone that hasn't been interested in crpgs before, suddently pick this game up? With the game being titled 3 it tells the customer it's not the first iteration and therefor probably has a story that is continued from earlier games, a story they have missed. Being a crpg it will probably have some basic core mechanics that the customer haven't liked so far. Etc.

I personally don't like fps so I would never pick up a game tagged with fps, no matter how hyped it becomes. And I buy neither books, games or movie sequels without getting the the original first unless I can find confirmation that their stories are independent from each other.

Sozz answered it rather well on the comment below yours. I also think the fact that all the big gaming journalism sites already reviewed it even though it's early access (they didn't do the same for say, solasta) is also a small indication. I also can hardly believe that all the people who bought the game are hardcore bg fans. if that was true, why other crpgs don't get the same numbers?


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Abits

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First of all. This game,, even though it might become great, is not the best thing since slized bread. It's a crpg. The third iteration in its series. People that haven't been interested in crpgs before have absoluly no reason becoming interested in this one. Not when the title has the number "3" in it. Some people might pick it up based on hype in media but not the majority. The majority of players bying this game will be people that has either fond memories of earlier Baldur's Gate games, likes D&D/fantasy crpgs or liked Larians previous releases and hopes this will have the same quality.

Without proper data you can't know for sure you are right. Honestly I'm not sure you are


I can ofc be wrong, I'm not all knowing. But from a logic point of view...why would someone that hasn't been interested in crpgs before, suddently pick this game up? With the game being titled 3 it tells the customer it's not the first iteration and therefor probably has a story that is continued from earlier games, a story they have missed. Being a crpg it will probably have some basic core mechanics that the customer haven't liked so far. Etc.

I personally don't like fps so I would never pick up a game tagged with fps, no matter how hyped it becomes. And I buy neither books, games or movie sequels without getting the the original first unless I can find confirmation that their stories are independent from each other.

SEX!!! HYPE!!! MARKETING!!! why does anyone? Baldur's Gate will be the sexy new game when it comes out, and between reviews and word of mouth, I'm sure lots of people will try it out. We live in an age where Yakuza 6 is burning up the charts, what does that tell you?



As I said, I might be wrong. But overall I strongly believe people, especially on forums like this, overhype the game to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the game will sell well. just look at the EA. But I don't think it will reach that far outside the common rpg market. And that's ok. It's not a niche market.

Believe it or not, but yesterday I discovered that a friend of mine, a person that spends atleast 8hours a day gaming, and has done so the last 17 years, had never even heard about Baldur's Gate. or neverwinter, or icewind dale, or any similar crpgs. Because he simply don't like that genre. But you can be damned sure he keeps tag on every single little news he can find about up coming games that does interest him.

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
As I said, I might be wrong. But overall I strongly believe people, especially on forums like this, overhype the game to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the game will sell well. just look at the EA. But I don't think it will reach that far outside the common rpg market. And that's ok. It's not a niche market.

Believe it or not, but yesterday I discovered that a friend of mine, a person that spends atleast 8hours a day gaming, and has done so the last 17 years, had never even heard about Baldur's Gate. or neverwinter, or icewind dale, or any similar crpgs. Because he simply don't like that genre. But you can be damned sure he keeps tag on every single little news he can find about up coming games that does interest him.
So 50% of players have heard of Baldur's Gate? smile
RPGs might not do Call of Duty numbers, but they're still a significant segment of PC gaming, add to that the renaissance D&D has been enjoying with 5e and you'll find the decision to make Baldur's Gate 3 now was not arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon

As I said, I might be wrong. But overall I strongly believe people, especially on forums like this, overhype the game to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the game will sell well. just look at the EA. But I don't think it will reach that far outside the common rpg market. And that's ok. It's not a niche market.

Believe it or not, but yesterday I discovered that a friend of mine, a person that spends atleast 8hours a day gaming, and has done so the last 17 years, had never even heard about Baldur's Gate. or neverwinter, or icewind dale, or any similar crpgs. Because he simply don't like that genre. But you can be damned sure he keeps tag on every single little news he can find about up coming games that does interest him.

Your logic is sound, but I think your grouping of this game with the crpg genre although true in reality, is not exactly how this game is perceived. I can definitely see for example people who played dragon age inquisition and the Witcher 3 being drawn to this game much more than to any other crpg of its kind. People tend to underestimate the cinematic presentation on this forum, but I think it is important to draw people in. And I think the crowd of the Witcher 3/dragon age games are kinda hungry for a new game that is not isometric text based hardcore but doesn't compromise on other RPG elements of story and choice


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
As I said, I might be wrong. But overall I strongly believe people, especially on forums like this, overhype the game to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the game will sell well. just look at the EA. But I don't think it will reach that far outside the common rpg market. And that's ok. It's not a niche market.

Believe it or not, but yesterday I discovered that a friend of mine, a person that spends atleast 8hours a day gaming, and has done so the last 17 years, had never even heard about Baldur's Gate. or neverwinter, or icewind dale, or any similar crpgs. Because he simply don't like that genre. But you can be damned sure he keeps tag on every single little news he can find about up coming games that does interest him.
So 50% of players have heard of Baldur's Gate? smile
RPGs might not do Call of Duty numbers, but they're still a significant segment of PC gaming, add to that the renaissance D&D has been enjoying with 5e and you'll find the decision to make Baldur's Gate 3 now was not arbitrary.


im not sure you actually read what i wrote. I myself stated that the rpg market is not small. And just because I revealed that there are gamers that haven't heard about the game or shows any interest in it doesn''t make me state that this equals 50% of the world population interested in computer gaming or even that I believe so myself.

If you want to defend your conviction that's fine but I ask of you to not put words in my mouth. It's bad manner and your whole response implies poor reading comprehension.

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Tons of people played, and love, the Witcher 3, who never ever played the previous Witcher games, or even wanted to. Tons of people played, and love, Skyrim, who never ever played any previous Elder Scrolls games, or even wanted to. Tons of people played Fallout 4 and it was their first Fallout game (how sad for them). Tons of people played the Final Fantasy 7 Remake who never played the original FF7, or any Final Fantasys that came before it.

The broad, general gaming audience (not specific niche subsets like us) is not interested in games which are old. They are interested in games which are new, and have a lot of hype. They don't care if there were previous titles in a series, they just want to play the new, pretty, popular game that they hear a lot of other people saying is good.

I've seen a bunch of people playing BG3 who don't even play this type of RPG, it's literally their first isometric party-based RPG, their first game based on D&D. They are mostly lost, but also having fun. Because it's a fun game. Those people are never going to come onto these forums and post feedback. They're fine with how it is.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Warlocke
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Being decisive and making the right choices. A person who does that would naturally rise to the position of a leader is most groups of strangers. Why did the NPCs all submit to letting the Bhaalspawn assume leadership in BG1? The same reason. Nobody in the party knew their heritage until towards the end of the game.
This is a very good point

counter-point, everyone followed the Bhaalspawn because games are poorly written; with the unwarranted assumption that you are the protagonist. In other words you're the protagonist because you're the protagonist...

I also would like to point out that very 'decisive' people who go around saying they're making 'right' choices are as liable to find themselves leading only themselves.


BG3 never gives you the option to go around announcing that you are making the right choices, so that isn’t applicable. As it is, you either make the right choices in the eyes of your party and the express approval or at some point they will leave. I see no problem here.

Quote
What genre is that? RPG? Then I'm not...I thought you were in favor of more narrative freedom ;p I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.


How many player driven, narrative focused, party based RPGs can you list where you don’t play as the leader? The central conceit of this genre is that you are making choices that direct the story as well as tactical choices to one extent or another. This sub genre of RPGs could accurately be called leadership sims. If you don’t want to play as the leader then you are playing the wrong genre of video games. It’s like wanting to play a WW2 FPS where you don’t shoot guns.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke

Why did the NPCs all submit to letting the Bhaalspawn assume leadership in BG1? The same reason. Nobody in the party knew their heritage until towards the end of the game.

To be honest, BG1 doesn’t have many choices to make. As such I don’t think there is much clash of what companions and what you would do. Imoen definitely isn’t a leader, so it makes sense she sticks with big brother. Khalid and Jaheira were tasked with keeping you safe, and they point you toward your next objective, so in a way you the player are to follow they direction. Actually, if I remember well most early companions tell you where they go and it just happens to be the place you should be going it (neat, organic guiding through the open world!). Minsc/Edwin send you on another quest, and will turn on you if you won’t do it within a short period of time. Perhaps, simply lack of companion content didnt lead to question, why they would follow PC - just another meat bag to add to your squad.

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
As I said, I might be wrong. But overall I strongly believe people, especially on forums like this, overhype the game to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the game will sell well. just look at the EA. But I don't think it will reach that far outside the common rpg market. And that's ok. It's not a niche market.

Believe it or not, but yesterday I discovered that a friend of mine, a person that spends atleast 8hours a day gaming, and has done so the last 17 years, had never even heard about Baldur's Gate. or neverwinter, or icewind dale, or any similar crpgs. Because he simply don't like that genre. But you can be damned sure he keeps tag on every single little news he can find about up coming games that does interest him.
So 50% of players have heard of Baldur's Gate? smile
RPGs might not do Call of Duty numbers, but they're still a significant segment of PC gaming, add to that the renaissance D&D has been enjoying with 5e and you'll find the decision to make Baldur's Gate 3 now was not arbitrary.


im not sure you actually read what i wrote. I myself stated that the rpg market is not small. And just because I revealed that there are gamers that haven't heard about the game or shows any interest in it doesn''t make me state that this equals 50% of the world population interested in computer gaming or even that I believe so myself.

If you want to defend your conviction that's fine but I ask of you to not put words in my mouth. It's bad manner and your whole response implies poor reading comprehension.
Sorry, it was just a joke, between you and your friend, 50% of gamers had heard of Baldur's Gate, that's all.

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Listen, I’m not bringing this up to be a dick since I know you aren’t doing this on purpose, but I’ve noticed that you have a habit of asking somebody a question and then replying to the answer with “that’s not what we are talking about,” but it is what the topic—at least tangentially—is about because YOU are the one that asked the question. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m just being polite and answering your questions. Being told that my answers to questions you asked are irrelevant is so aggravating it makes me not want to respond to you at all.

That and dropping random bits of Latin into your sentences to make them sound elevated. Literally on the first day of law school they told us never to do that. Lawyers eventually learned that it just annoys people. XD

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Sozz
Warlocke
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Being decisive and making the right choices. A person who does that would naturally rise to the position of a leader is most groups of strangers. Why did the NPCs all submit to letting the Bhaalspawn assume leadership in BG1? The same reason. Nobody in the party knew their heritage until towards the end of the game.
This is a very good point

counter-point, everyone followed the Bhaalspawn because games are poorly written; with the unwarranted assumption that you are the protagonist. In other words you're the protagonist because you're the protagonist...

I also would like to point out that very 'decisive' people who go around saying they're making 'right' choices are as liable to find themselves leading only themselves.


BG3 never gives you the option to go around announcing that you are making the right choices, so that isn’t applicable. As it is, you either make the right choices in the eyes of your party and the express approval or at some point they will leave. I see no problem here.
I'm glad you also see it as poor writting.

One thing BG3 does do is establish pretty clearly why none of your companions should look to you for leadership, even if you are an 18 CHA martinet. But unless I've misunderstood something, this isn't a topic about what BG3 is doing right or wrong, it's a topic about what we'd like to see it do, and RPGs in general, in this case I would actually like to see more thought given to party dynamics, beyond you are the Chosen, they follow or leave.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Sozz
What genre is that? RPG? Then I'm not...I thought you were in favor of more narrative freedom ;p I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.

How many player driven, narrative focused, party based RPGs can you list where you don’t play as the leader? The central conceit of this genre is that you are making choices that direct the story as well as tactical choices to one extent or another. This sub genre of RPGs could accurately be called leadership sims. If you don’t want to play as the leader then you are playing the wrong genre of video games. It’s like wanting to play a WW2 FPS where you don’t shoot guns.
There aren't many player driven narrative focused party based RPGs that don't cast you, pro forma, as the leader, but this isn't a discussion about what games are it's about what I would like games to be.(and for a record there are a few at least if you get into the text-only levels of game, and maybe some game mods too) and just to be clear, not being the leader is not the same as not having any narrative agency.
I agree with you that the reason people play these games is to experience interactive storytelling, you're given scenarios and opportunities to effect the outcome through your choices, none of that is mutually exclusive with the above statement.

That said the point I was really making there was how limited the concept of player freedom could seriously be treated in video games. I'm not sure a custom mc gives you more freedom than a origin pc, I suspect it just takes things away, and from what I'm hearing a lot of people are happy to head-cannon their way into a better story.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Listen, I’m not bringing this up to be a dick since I know you aren’t doing this on purpose, but I’ve noticed that you have a habit of asking somebody a question and then replying to the answer with “that’s not what we are talking about,” but it is what the topic—at least tangentially—is about because YOU are the one that asked the question. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m just being polite and answering your questions. Being told that my answers to questions you asked are irrelevant is so aggravating it makes me not want to respond to you at all.

That and dropping random bits of Latin into your sentences to make them sound elevated. Literally on the first day of law school they told us never to do that. Lawyers eventually learned that it just annoys people. XD

There's nothing eleveated about talking about game design :p but I'm glad you told me I was being abrasive. I would like better if you explained to me how it is connected, I want to be convinced, otherwise I wouldn't be in a forum talking about these things.
....ipso facto, ergo, mutant mutandis...carthago delenda est etc. there now maybe I've got it out of my system...

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If this site had upvotes I'd give you two both +1 for being mature and sociable


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Originally Posted by Sozz

There's nothing eleveated about talking about game design :p but I'm glad you told me I was being abrasive. I would like better if you explained to me how it is connected, I want to be convinced, otherwise I wouldn't be in a forum talking about these things.
ipso facto, ergo, mutant mutandis...carthago delenda est etc.


Hey, no worries. Like I said, I know it wasn’t intentional, and intention is a thing I think everybody struggles to accurately articulate into their posts at times.

If you are looking for a persuasive argument you got the wrong nerd, though. I’m far too comfortable with other people disagreeing with me to bother changing anybody’s mind here. Plus, I approach these games so idiosyncratically that I know right off the bat that my own opinions don’t track on to the vast majority of players.

I have just as much fun playing with 4 custom characters as I do with companions, no matter how well they are written. I’m perfectly content to schizophrenically headcanon multiple backstories, party banter, campfire discussions, inter-party dynamics, and even party member rivalries. It’s a very mastabatory style of role play. 😂

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Hey, no worries. Like I said, I know it wasn’t intentional, and intention is a thing I think everybody struggles to accurately articulate into their posts at times.

If you are looking for a persuasive argument you got the wrong nerd, though. I’m far too comfortable with other people disagreeing with me to bother changing anybody’s mind here. Plus, I approach these games so idiosyncratically that I know right off the bat that my own opinions don’t track on to the vast majority of players.

I have just as much fun playing with 4 custom characters as I do with companions, no matter how well they are written. I’m perfectly content to schizophrenically headcanon multiple backstories, party banter, campfire discussions, inter-party dynamics, and even party member rivalries. It’s a very mastabatory style of role play. 😂
At the end of the day I think I just envy people who can play like that, If try to just play with a head-canon like that I just get self-conscious, how fucked-up is that in a single-player experience frown

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

Originally Posted by tsundokugames
The issue is that Larian's past games make "Origin" characters more relevant to the story than custom created characters.


Exactly. My custom character in DOS2 was there to carry Fane's luggage.


+1 for truth.
Also, funny post.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Tons of people played, and love, the Witcher 3, who never ever played the previous Witcher games, or even wanted to. Tons of people played, and love, Skyrim, who never ever played any previous Elder Scrolls games, or even wanted to. Tons of people played Fallout 4 and it was their first Fallout game (how sad for them). Tons of people played the Final Fantasy 7 Remake who never played the original FF7, or any Final Fantasys that came before it.

The broad, general gaming audience (not specific niche subsets like us) is not interested in games which are old. They are interested in games which are new, and have a lot of hype. They don't care if there were previous titles in a series, they just want to play the new, pretty, popular game that they hear a lot of other people saying is good.

I've seen a bunch of people playing BG3 who don't even play this type of RPG, it's literally their first isometric party-based RPG, their first game based on D&D. They are mostly lost, but also having fun. Because it's a fun game. Those people are never going to come onto these forums and post feedback. They're fine with how it is.

Yeah, I'm always amazed by that. 60% of the people who played Mass Effect 3 did not play or import a character from Mass Effect 2 (let alone ME 1). Kind of mind boggling but there you go!

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3

I guess a specific example is in homebrew (sometimes even in premade modules, depending on the DM), the DM can often incorporate part of your background into the story. Find your lost lover, avenge your parents, reclaim your birthright, introduction of an NPC that is from your background, etc. This greatly helps me, at least, to rp my character and feel like they're a real part in the world.

Obviously, I don't expect BG3 to have this type of thing due to the vast amount of work/permutations it'd require. But there's some happy middle ground between headcannon-only Tav and ^.

Of course, Larian could already plan to do something like this in Act 2, in which case great! ^_^

I see what you are getting at, most characters I play do not have some driving goal but their background is definitely incorporated somehow by the DM. I guess I am used to games where you are one thing (prisoner, soldier/lawyer, etc) and your background details are all headcanon, pretty much like what we have here. In these games, the goal is determined by the game ("I have to find my...." being fairly common), there are of course side quests, but background doesn't play any part.

Originally Posted by Sozz

I'm sorry I made this confusing, I didn't mean rolling your background, the impartial third-party I'm talking about is the game, our "mechanical DM", making a headcannon around the scant particulars given us in character creation is one thing, but only what is in the game can be observed, reacted to, and incorporated into the story, which is what I'm after most.

I'm also for a more robust system of traits, or similar, to customize our MC with, for the same reason.

Traits and similar stuff would be nice.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I've seen a bunch of people playing BG3 who don't even play this type of RPG, it's literally their first isometric party-based RPG, their first game based on D&D. They are mostly lost, but also having fun. Because it's a fun game. Those people are never going to come onto these forums and post feedback. They're fine with how it is.

I don't usually get into isometric games at all, prefer TPS, survival, and open world rpg types. I was actually surprised that I enjoy this one as much as I do, only got it because my DnD group were also getting it and we planned to play our characters here to see what they would do, which hasn't happened yet ofc. I don't mind testing though, so will post feedback and other stuff, and will definitely play it a few times once released.

Originally Posted by Wormerine

Perhaps, simply lack of companion content didnt lead to question, why they would follow PC - just another meat bag to add to your squad.

From my limited play of this (I got to BG and stopped, can't really get into it) I agree about the meat bag companions. I didn't feel like a leader, more like an observer. The game pretty much directs you to go to places and if you have characters of different alignments going to the same place, you can't even get them to cooperate long enough to get there. Then they make snarky remarks about how you do things instead of you being able to have an adult conversation with them about why. Dorn feels the least like a meat shield, probably because he actually had a quest line. Imoen is like the pesky younger sister I never had, the rest are pretty much forgettable except wanting to shove Minsc's morals up his arse. Got rid of him as soon as his miniquest was done.

Originally Posted by Warlocke

I have just as much fun playing with 4 custom characters as I do with companions, no matter how well they are written. I’m perfectly content to schizophrenically headcanon multiple backstories, party banter, campfire discussions, inter-party dynamics, and even party member rivalries.

This is something I tend to do as well. Probably why I made so many custom followers in Skyrim. I do like the option for having fully fleshed out companions like we have here though.

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Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by DanteYoda

Just takes a huge amount of dev time away from the actual game and adds content very few want.

Wrong. unless you have some very compelling proof, you can't claim very few want origin characters. I don't have much to say many do, but I did make some anti origin posts on Reddit and got downvoted quite harshly.

Look at all the people bringing up these things and are upset by it.. Its not just me.

And downvotes on reddit are meaningless wont change my opinion one speck.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Sozz

There's nothing eleveated about talking about game design :p but I'm glad you told me I was being abrasive. I would like better if you explained to me how it is connected, I want to be convinced, otherwise I wouldn't be in a forum talking about these things.
ipso facto, ergo, mutant mutandis...carthago delenda est etc.


Hey, no worries. Like I said, I know it wasn’t intentional, and intention is a thing I think everybody struggles to accurately articulate into their posts at times.

If you are looking for a persuasive argument you got the wrong nerd, though. I’m far too comfortable with other people disagreeing with me to bother changing anybody’s mind here. Plus, I approach these games so idiosyncratically that I know right off the bat that my own opinions don’t track on to the vast majority of players.

I have just as much fun playing with 4 custom characters as I do with companions, no matter how well they are written. I’m perfectly content to schizophrenically headcanon multiple backstories, party banter, campfire discussions, inter-party dynamics, and even party member rivalries. It’s a very mastabatory style of role play. 😂

Same exactly..

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I would imagine if very few people used origin characters in DOS2 then Larian wouldn’t be implementing them in BG3.

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Originally Posted by pinklily
Genuinely curious since I see a lot of people complain about it. I don't hate the concept but I never see myself playing the origins and I kind of wish they would redirect resources to making the PC more interesting.


I love the origin system and if they took it out I would be less motivated to play the game. A Shadowheart playthrough is one of the first ones I'm going to make. An Astarion one is totally happening too.

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