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First let me preface this with how much I am enjoying this game even in early access. While it is certainly impossible to recapture the tabletop DnD experience in a game, Larian is taking what may be the best shot I have seen. As the goal is to stay close to DnD mechanics I do have some concerns.

Action Economy: The plethora of bonus actions that all characters are given access to is a major problem. Disengage, shove, hide all need to be actions and disengage needs to be separated from jump which is pretty interesting as a bonus action. These abilities as bonus actions are major class features of the rogue and monk. And bonus action shove is exclusive to those who take shield master. Making this available to all characters lessens the flavor and effectiveness of those classes. It also makes the game very unbalanced as it is not difficult to keep your entire party hidden and attack every round with the enemy unable to respond.

Reactions and other trigger abilities: This I understand must be a difficult mechanic to make work and the current system while a good attempt is going to have major issues when certain very important spells and class features are added. Let's look at Shield. This reaction spell is an essential spell for the wizard and any Gish type character. Being able to either have always trigger or never trigger is not going to work as you will burn through your spell slots. While this may work for opportunity attacks and even for the war caster feature whenever the melee cantrips are added the current system leaves a lot to be desired.

This will become a far bigger problem when we look at the Paladin and what is the defining feature of the class, divine smite. The closest thing I see in game to this currently is the battlemaster maneuvers. The current solution is you choose to activate the ability before you attack. This greatly weakens these abilities as they should be able to applied when you hit and more importantly for divine smites when you critical. This forces any character with these types of abilities to burn through their resources extremely quickly without much control.

Possible Solution for trigger abilities: I am not a game designer and do not understand all the intricacies in coding and such things but I am a gamer and can think of one mechanic that could work well for this, quick time events. Having a quick time event anytime an ability is triggered could be effective and possibly more engaging for players as they would have only a minimal window to react. I do not see this slowing down gameplay and could be a good solution for the plethora of class abilities that work this way.

Character Creation: My big concern here is point buy. We long ago banned point buy at our tables as we found it to be a stifling method of making characters. It leads to constant dump statting so every character is dumb as a rock and limits creative mixing of race and class. It also makes creative multiclassing all but impossible as your stats don't support it. The option of rolled stats needs to be included. This allow players to make the characters they want.


Immersion Issues: This is minor stuff that I expect will get cleaned up as the game moves closer to completion. Examples: weapons hanging on your back without scabbards, longswords on back but not on hips, no quivers, dead bodies never going away.

Thank you for the work you are doing and I look forward to seeing this game live up to its potential.

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Well said... as a fellow pnp player, i VERY much agree with the bonus action disengage shove ect... currently the largest flaw in game.

I haven't really bothered with reactions due to current implementation. Agree this needs to be looked at... just not sure how exactly.

The "roll" stat option though.. might as well just let the players pick their stats... basically what you end up with... loved MCing in 3rd ed. but it looks like they tried to reign it in a bit in 5th ed. imo(im sure some could argue this)... seems like they tried to reign a lot in...

Good stuff though!

Llev

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Originally Posted by ColumbusOz
First let me preface this with how much I am enjoying this game even in early access. While it is certainly impossible to recapture the tabletop DnD experience in a game, Larian is taking what may be the best shot I have seen. As the goal is to stay close to DnD mechanics I do have some concerns.

Action Economy: The plethora of bonus actions that all characters are given access to is a major problem. Disengage, shove, hide all need to be actions and disengage needs to be separated from jump which is pretty interesting as a bonus action. These abilities as bonus actions are major class features of the rogue and monk. And bonus action shove is exclusive to those who take shield master. Making this available to all characters lessens the flavor and effectiveness of those classes. It also makes the game very unbalanced as it is not difficult to keep your entire party hidden and attack every round with the enemy unable to respond.

Reactions and other trigger abilities: This I understand must be a difficult mechanic to make work and the current system while a good attempt is going to have major issues when certain very important spells and class features are added. Let's look at Shield. This reaction spell is an essential spell for the wizard and any Gish type character. Being able to either have always trigger or never trigger is not going to work as you will burn through your spell slots. While this may work for opportunity attacks and even for the war caster feature whenever the melee cantrips are added the current system leaves a lot to be desired.

This will become a far bigger problem when we look at the Paladin and what is the defining feature of the class, divine smite. The closest thing I see in game to this currently is the battlemaster maneuvers. The current solution is you choose to activate the ability before you attack. This greatly weakens these abilities as they should be able to applied when you hit and more importantly for divine smites when you critical. This forces any character with these types of abilities to burn through their resources extremely quickly without much control.

Possible Solution for trigger abilities: I am not a game designer and do not understand all the intricacies in coding and such things but I am a gamer and can think of one mechanic that could work well for this, quick time events. Having a quick time event anytime an ability is triggered could be effective and possibly more engaging for players as they would have only a minimal window to react. I do not see this slowing down gameplay and could be a good solution for the plethora of class abilities that work this way.

Character Creation: My big concern here is point buy. We long ago banned point buy at our tables as we found it to be a stifling method of making characters. It leads to constant dump statting so every character is dumb as a rock and limits creative mixing of race and class. It also makes creative multiclassing all but impossible as your stats don't support it. The option of rolled stats needs to be included. This allow players to make the characters they want.


Immersion Issues: This is minor stuff that I expect will get cleaned up as the game moves closer to completion. Examples: weapons hanging on your back without scabbards, longswords on back but not on hips, no quivers, dead bodies never going away.

Thank you for the work you are doing and I look forward to seeing this game live up to its potential.




Agree 100% to everything. <3

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Good feedback.

I generally agree with 2 exceptions

1.) I'd prefer to not have QTE for reactions. I'm much more in favor of a toggle option, where the "off" toggle is what larian has now and the "on" toggle is popup prompts (that last until we click them). Would I prefer QTE popups instead of Larian's current implementation....idk, but it doesn't seem to match with the philosophy of turn-based.

2.) As much as I hate to admit it, "Shove" is the person I'm playing with's (a D&D novice) favorite thing in the game. Shove as a bonus action isn't as game-breaking as disengage, especially since BG3 shove doesn't make an enemy prone. And having it as a bonus action allows it to be used more freely=more fun.
However, with the current implementation, when classes get 2 attacks you won't be able to shove twice per turn.
At the very least, Shove should be useable both as an action and a bonus action.

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Originally Posted by Llev
Well said... as a fellow pnp player, i VERY much agree with the bonus action disengage shove ect... currently the largest flaw in game.

I haven't really bothered with reactions due to current implementation. Agree this needs to be looked at... just not sure how exactly.

The "roll" stat option though.. might as well just let the players pick their stats... basically what you end up with... loved MCing in 3rd ed. but it looks like they tried to reign it in a bit in 5th ed. imo(im sure some could argue this)... seems like they tried to reign a lot in...

Good stuff though!

Llev


Rolling 6 random stats to be all 18 would be mathmatically improbable in a lifetime. There is a 1.62% chance to roll a single 18 using the 4-1x6 method, I don't remember now but I think it is close to 40x10^9 to one chance of all 18's. I think people vastly overestimate the chances of OP stats using this method. It does however allow people to use other races for certain classes and multiclasses.

OP +1. Agree on all counts.

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Most of the OP's discussion on mechanics are solid criticisms of the current game, but I'd just like to drop in to suggest to them that they take a look at Solasta's implementation of combat. There might be a lot else lacking in that game, but they do demonstrate how completely possible it is to implement 5e rules into a video game almost entirely faithfully and have them create sooth, intuitive, engaging and thoroughly satisfying combat. Reactions are handled exactly as your DM will handle them with a player at the table - they game briefly pauses to ask if you'd like to use the reaction whose trigger is being met, you say yes or no, and then the game continues... it's smooth and very unobtrusive, and does the job very effectively.

Meanwhile here, we have a game claiming to be Dungeons and Dragons, which doesn't even *have* the shield spell in the game right now.

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Funny, we actually used rolls for abilities when my group first started and eventually swapped to point buy. Point buy imo works better for character creation since you don't rely on luck and get to customize your abilities how you like. The other was array I think? Pre-setup numbers you slapped into each ability, no one really liked array in my group so it was never used.

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Funny, we actually used rolls for abilities when my group first started and eventually swapped to point buy. Point buy imo works better for character creation since you don't rely on luck and get to customize your abilities how you like. The other was array I think? Pre-setup numbers you slapped into each ability, no one really liked array in my group so it was never used.


Array is just point buy that limits you to buying exactly 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8. I find myself sometimes going for these exact values, but point buy is better, because you can also do 3x15, 3x8, something abserd like 3x13, 3x12 or anything in between.

Last edited by mg666; 19/11/20 01:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by fallenj
Funny, we actually used rolls for abilities when my group first started and eventually swapped to point buy. Point buy imo works better for character creation since you don't rely on luck and get to customize your abilities how you like. The other was array I think? Pre-setup numbers you slapped into each ability, no one really liked array in my group so it was never used.

Another main benefit of point buy imo is to make sure one player's character isn't overpowered compared to another player's character (and thus making the latter player unhappy).
In a video game, where lots of us will be playing solo, why not allow us to roll for our stats?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by fallenj
Funny, we actually used rolls for abilities when my group first started and eventually swapped to point buy. Point buy imo works better for character creation since you don't rely on luck and get to customize your abilities how you like. The other was array I think? Pre-setup numbers you slapped into each ability, no one really liked array in my group so it was never used.

Another main benefit of point buy imo is to make sure one player's character isn't overpowered compared to another player's character (and thus making the latter player unhappy).
In a video game, where lots of us will be playing solo, why not allow us to roll for our stats?

True and if I remember correctly Sven mentioned it being implemented later on, if not probably be a mod for it.

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I hate rolling for stats. In a pen-and-paper campaign, it's just a bad way to do things. One person's character is gonna be much better than someone else's just because of stupid luck at character creation. In a video game, everyone's just gonna re-roll until they get a bunch of good rolls, so all that means is that every PC is always overpowered with ridiculous stats. Rolled stats are basically just cheating, to me. Point buy is fair, flexible, and puts every character on the same level.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I hate rolling for stats. In a pen-and-paper campaign, it's just a bad way to do things. One person's character is gonna be much better than someone else's just because of stupid luck at character creation. In a video game, everyone's just gonna re-roll until they get a bunch of good rolls, so all that means is that every PC is always overpowered with ridiculous stats. Rolled stats are basically just cheating, to me. Point buy is fair, flexible, and puts every character on the same level.


I tend to agree with this. The few times I've rolled I've only ever done really badly or really middling. One game was especially rough because I had a dedicated archer ranger with a focus on stealth and my friend was a DEX fighter dual wielder, and someone else made a rogue, rolled insanely well, and was a better archer than my ranger and better dual wielder than the fighter while having higher AC, more proficiencies + expertise, significantly better stealth, and was even almost as good a face as our bard.

It was... Not great.

It makes less sense to me for a single player game because 100% people are mostly gonna re-roll until they have the stats they want. Seems you could get the same result with point buy and just remove the 15 cap and give something like 40-50 points to spend.

But lots of people want it so I don't sit here and try to deny it to them. It just makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
It makes less sense to me for a single player game because 100% people are mostly gonna re-roll until they have the stats they want. Seems you could get the same result with point buy and just remove the 15 cap and give something like 40-50 points to spend.

But lots of people want it so I don't sit here and try to deny it to them. It just makes no sense to me.

Personally with point buy, I feel obligated to make a dump stat (or I feel bad for not having a dump stat and thus significantly constraining my other stats)

The thing with re-rolling (assuming you roll all stats at the same time) is that it's very unlikely you'll get more than 3 stats above 16 (3.26% using 4d6 drop lowest) https://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/
Add to that the requirement that the remaining stats aren't terrible, that 3% probably drops to something closer to 0.3%.

So rolling is a good mix of being
-less constraining than point buy
-also still decently random, so you can't create a super optimized character
-in single player, there's no chance that you'll outshine someone

Edit: In PnP, point buy is worth it to ensure players are equally balanced and because it allows you to plan our your character before session 0/1. This allows the DM to move on to the actual game faster. For video games, there is less need to plan out your character beforehand, taking away from a major benefit of point buy

Last edited by mrfuji3; 19/11/20 05:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I hate rolling for stats. In a pen-and-paper campaign, it's just a bad way to do things. One person's character is gonna be much better than someone else's just because of stupid luck at character creation. In a video game, everyone's just gonna re-roll until they get a bunch of good rolls, so all that means is that every PC is always overpowered with ridiculous stats. Rolled stats are basically just cheating, to me. Point buy is fair, flexible, and puts every character on the same level.


I tend to agree with this. The few times I've rolled I've only ever done really badly or really middling. One game was especially rough because I had a dedicated archer ranger with a focus on stealth and my friend was a DEX fighter dual wielder, and someone else made a rogue, rolled insanely well, and was a better archer than my ranger and better dual wielder than the fighter while having higher AC, more proficiencies + expertise, significantly better stealth, and was even almost as good a face as our bard.

It was... Not great.

It makes less sense to me for a single player game because 100% people are mostly gonna re-roll until they have the stats they want. Seems you could get the same result with point buy and just remove the 15 cap and give something like 40-50 points to spend.

But lots of people want it so I don't sit here and try to deny it to them. It just makes no sense to me.


I feel you. For me stat rolls add to the roleplay element. All people are not created with 27 points to spend in attributes. In the D&D PHB players can do either/or. If you don't fancy your luck or the DM says just one roll go 27 all the way. Noting is taken away from anyone having both options in single player. Swen already said this was going to be added so at this point it's pretty moot.

Could even add to an Ironman mode that is so majorly hardcore if you try and reset it deletes the game from your hardrive and notifies steam to delete BG3 from your account. At the end of the day everone who is going to cheat is going to and more options is never "worse".

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar


I feel you. For me stat rolls add to the roleplay element. All people are not created with 27 points to spend in attributes.


See, for me it actually subtracts from the roleplay. With point buy I can tailor the stats to my character to reflect his life choices and education up until this point. I'll absolutely sit there and make a druid with 12-14 strength or intelligence even though those are easy dump stats just based on the character I want to play.

With rolled stats a lot of that agency is taken away from you and put in the hands of RNG. And it really sucks when you have a character concept in mind but you didn't roll well enough to pull it off.

Of course that is why re-rolls exist, but at that point I don't see a clear difference between rolling and just giving players more points to spend.

Plus while not everyone is created perfectly equal, I'd argue the variance in natural talent isn't that extreme. Modern humans are specialists. We dedicate our lives to a specific career and go through years and years of training to attain the skill set needed to perform it. Generally speaking if you're a top tier neuroscientist you're not gonna run into someone who is just as good at neuroscience as you while also being an Olympic level gymnast and skilled political leader.

Granted, this is also why Batman as a character bugs me. I find his 127 blackbelts, peak human conditioning, and PHDs in a dozen or more advanced sciences to be wildly unrealistic.

But to each their own. I'm not gonna say no to an option just because I'll never use it. If anything more settings would be great so we can all tailor our experience to fit our preferences.

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Rolling for stats in one of my favorite things of creating a character. Getting "unbalanced" stats and then playing around with them trying to make them work for you, is part of character building for me.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Originally Posted by Llev
Well said... as a fellow pnp player, i VERY much agree with the bonus action disengage shove ect... currently the largest flaw in game.

I haven't really bothered with reactions due to current implementation. Agree this needs to be looked at... just not sure how exactly.

The "roll" stat option though.. might as well just let the players pick their stats... basically what you end up with... loved MCing in 3rd ed. but it looks like they tried to reign it in a bit in 5th ed. imo(im sure some could argue this)... seems like they tried to reign a lot in...

Good stuff though!

Llev


Rolling 6 random stats to be all 18 would be mathmatically improbable in a lifetime. There is a 1.62% chance to roll a single 18 using the 4-1x6 method, I don't remember now but I think it is close to 40x10^9 to one chance of all 18's. I think people vastly overestimate the chances of OP stats using this method. It does however allow people to use other races for certain classes and multiclasses.

OP +1. Agree on all counts.


Minor concern to me but few would go for all 18s and would probably settle (3) 18s (1) 16... etc... to make whatever particularly build they had in mind "work" better... in a single player game it would be of no concern at all... in a tabletop game where everyone was doing the same also no concern...

...and honestly might as well get rid of the point buy system altogether if you can roll a few times until you get a desirable result... few will use it... ;D

Last edited by Llev; 19/11/20 11:46 AM.
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Point Buy vs Rolled Stat Response: There is no right or wrong way to generate stats. That should always be table dependent and every group should use the method that works best or is the most fun for them. My critique on point buy for baldur's gate 3 has more to do with the fact that currently that is the only option. I have been playing multiplayer with my tabletop group and they have been disappointed that they don't get to roll stats because they enjoy that part of character creation. And if the person playing baldur's gate 3 wants to roll until they get the "perfect" scores, as long as their group is having fun who cares.

Reactions Reply: Thank you to everyone who has posted their own ideas for solutions to this issue. I have no clue if my idea for QTE is the correct or even a good solution. The other ideas I have seen on here may be far better. I hope Larian takes all the feedback they are getting on this issue and makes some improvements going forward.

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Agreed except when it comes to rolling for stats.

Always hated it for PnP, it creates a power imbalance between players that sticks for the rest of the game, purely based on luck. Multiclassing conditions in 5e are very easy to satisfy, so I do not understand the issue you take with that.

I suppose an argument could be made for singleplayer, because you're the only one affected, but as someone else pointed out, might as well choose your stats then (or fix them up with the inevitable save editors).

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