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ash elemental #736990 20/11/20 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Sorry, I just edited my post for clarification. They are not hiding in BG3, they are infiltrating the circle, trying to take over; this is their main goal. Nature's fury and so on, this is what Faldorn used to be about in BG1 too.
Were they going to go on the offensive once their chips were down and the grove was sealed then? I don't think this is communicated to the player, nor does that sounds anything like Kagha's plan. Maybe the problem is that Olodan gets hardly any lines?

Vhaldez #737003 20/11/20 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Were they going to go on the offensive once their chips were down and the grove was sealed then? I don't think this is communicated to the player, nor does that sounds anything like Kagha's plan. Maybe the problem is that Olodan gets hardly any lines?

My interpretation is that they simply want the goblins to kill all of the refugees, who represent civilization to them (city folk basically). For Kagha, this might be an initiation rite into the shadow circle. Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.

ash elemental #737005 20/11/20 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.
That would mean that an ideologically consistent evil Druid player character would end up wiping out the grove with Minthara 🧠

Vhaldez #737013 20/11/20 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.
That would mean that an ideologically consistent evil Druid player character would end up wiping out the grove with Minthara 🧠

Not necessarily, because Minthara also represents civilization. It's not about evil vs. good, but nature vs. civilization. The goal is not the eradication of all civilized life, but rather destroying all civilized habitats (such as cities and villages), and thus enforcing a return to the more natural ways of life, because it'll be the only way of surviving once civilization is gone.

My guess is that the druids in BG3 are hoping locking of the circle will protect them from Minthara (who for all her posturing doesn't have that much magical power), while goblins slaughtering the tieflings is survival of the fittest in a way.

edit: Evil druids can join the group of all other evil characters who are not happy with how the evil plotline is being handled.

Last edited by ash elemental; 20/11/20 08:58 PM.
Vhaldez #737034 20/11/20 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.


Kagha is an elf. When you live for over 500 years, isolating for a few while the goblins do the scut work of burning some towns seems a bit more reasonable.

Bossk_Hogg #737323 21/11/20 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

Kagha is an elf. When you live for over 500 years, isolating for a few while the goblins do the scut work of burning some towns seems a bit more reasonable.
Kagha is also the head of a racially diverse grove with humans and gnomes who can't afford to spend their entire life waiting for some minor conflict to blow over.

Vhaldez #738489 24/11/20 10:43 AM
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I just find kagha’s writing hamfisted, regardless of the background lore behind the shadow druids or druids in general. As if Larian has no faith that I will see her in the wrong unless she is a raving lunatic who kills children. Not enough to be apathetic towards the plight of the tieflings in favor of her own nest, gotta call them parasites and advocate for ethnic cleansing. Gotta make the dead child scene a nigh impossibility to avoid. Maybe if she returns for another chapter, she will take on the gentleman’s game of kitten kicking. Druids need to pass the time under the dome of thorns somehow after all.

If anything, Arabella’s death felt more like a consequence that should have cone for royally screwing up an interaction. Or perhaps the influence of an evil pc playing the devil on the shoulder. Making it this difficult to avoid seems more an encounter for the goblin camp.

Last edited by Ari; 24/11/20 10:47 AM.
Vhaldez #738491 24/11/20 11:09 AM
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I prefer the old-fashioned neutral druids, because their goals of protecting nature and preserving the balance was something different to the usual good vs. evil axis, which is what most cRPGs tend to focus solely on. I'd rather have them put the survival of the grove first than risk the grove for the tieflings. Might as well make them good aligned priests of some nature-related deity in that case. I'm not a big fan of either Kagha or Halsin as they currently are.

ash elemental #738515 24/11/20 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ari
I just find kagha’s writing hamfisted, regardless of the background lore behind the shadow druids or druids in general. As if Larian has no faith that I will see her in the wrong unless she is a raving lunatic who kills children. Not enough to be apathetic towards the plight of the tieflings in favor of her own nest, gotta call them parasites and advocate for ethnic cleansing. Gotta make the dead child scene a nigh impossibility to avoid. Maybe if she returns for another chapter, she will take on the gentleman’s game of kitten kicking. Druids need to pass the time under the dome of thorns somehow after all.

If anything, Arabella’s death felt more like a consequence that should have cone for royally screwing up an interaction. Or perhaps the influence of an evil pc playing the devil on the shoulder. Making it this difficult to avoid seems more an encounter for the goblin camp.
It's also quite amusing to see Early Access marketed as "live out your evil fantasies!" and then a character like Kagha shows up who is so evil that even Lolth Drow wouldn't side with her. Not that you can side with her, for that matter.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I prefer the old-fashioned neutral druids, because their goals of protecting nature and preserving the balance was something different to the usual good vs. evil axis, which is what most cRPGs tend to focus solely on. I'd rather have them put the survival of the grove first than risk the grove for the tieflings. Might as well make them good aligned priests of some nature-related deity in that case. I'm not a big fan of either Kagha or Halsin as they currently are.
Completely agree with you. If the druids need a hamfisted alignment like this then what differentiates them from Paladins / Demons now.

Vhaldez #738519 24/11/20 01:29 PM
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Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.

Rieline #738520 24/11/20 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rieline
Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.
Unless they are under the influence of Shadow Druids, which apparently turns them into remorseless child killing extremist xenophobes.

Vhaldez #738521 24/11/20 01:39 PM
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No all the druidic circles are tolerant or neutral. It don't take much for a circle of Silvanus to become way less tolerant all it takes is an Archdruid that lead the circle in that direction. Archdruid have the final word in everything. Like i explained in past Silvanus circles are often not open to the outsiders even the pure neutral ones. In the case of Khaga is different factors that turns her the way she is.

Druids are not hippy. And the circle represented in the game were belonging to Silvanus. And in the case of the Grove is truly evident how many druids, included Khaga thing the balance in the area is disrupted this alone could bring a circle to take action and even if neutral they could even take openly hostile action.

I think Khaga wants to appear always in the right but in the end she was not the one killing the child. Her vyper was. The prejudice she had on the Tiefling was in this case aggravated by the fact that the girl ((even if she did that to aid the others)) stole the silvanus idol. But overall Tiefling are often victim of prejudice.

Vhaldez #738525 24/11/20 02:02 PM
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Druids are always shitlords, honestly.

Vhaldez #738530 24/11/20 02:09 PM
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Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees.

So they may lack the informations on the setting that would explain a lot of things.

Vhaldez #738573 24/11/20 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Rieline
Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.
Unless they are under the influence of Shadow Druids, which apparently turns them into remorseless child killing extremist xenophobes.



Settle down Beavis. She didnt kill the kid. The snake did when the kid shoves the guard and tries to flee. And she's not exactly happy about it as evidenced by her look of horror before she regains her icy composure.

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Sure the private killed the kid but the sergeant gave the order. But yes she definitely fucked up and realizes it immediately of course Rath stands there like a muppet. Kagha's not a leader she's a puppet to the shadow druid. Her hostile composure constantly breaks, if you come in as an under being she immediately tries to seek validation from you. If you talk her down from the kid killing she comes across as someone hopped up rather than someone cold and in control. Talking her into breaking from the Shadow Druids she sounds confused and naĂŻve, if successful, if you fail she hardens her resolve. Though, if knock out actually did something a good ass kicking would probably also smarten her up.

Druids always stuck me as xenophobic and haughty, I suppose these ones are just more blatant.

Rieline #738639 24/11/20 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rieline
Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees


For me it's not whether they are true to the setting, because I agree they are. My point was that Kagha and Halsin, as they are, feel unnecessary. The conflict between the druids, trying to protect the grove because it's a sacred place, and desperate refugees, whose presence is putting the grove at risk, would have been more interesting without the entire good vs. evil druid leader subplot.

ash elemental #738705 24/11/20 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline
Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees


For me it's not whether they are true to the setting, because I agree they are. My point was that Kagha and Halsin, as they are, feel unnecessary. The conflict between the druids, trying to protect the grove because it's a sacred place, and desperate refugees, whose presence is putting the grove at risk, would have been more interesting without the entire good vs. evil druid leader subplot.


It is not a good versus evil at all. As i explained several posts ago for the Druids the circle is something sacred so sacred that is usually well hidden and well shielded from outsider. Halsin accepted the refugees then the situation started to turn worse from the entire area. A chain of events happened Halsin disappeared and the druid found theyrself filled with problems they are just protecting their circle there is not evil about that. Even when the snakes killed the child Khaga seems very shocked about it probably she were not expecting the child to attempt to flee.

Steal an idol of Silvanus even only attempt to do it on a Circle of Silvanus is usually a death sentence even if the circle is neutral. In a druid mind the overall balance comes at the first place refugees means settling down. Settling down means deplete the natural resources of the area and turning the area Civilized. Now you can see the area is already partially civilized as there is a village not far from the grove. Like i said is a chain of events that brought the druids to take a drastic decision.

Silvanite druids care only for civilized people usually when they represent a threat for the place they have a circle in. It may be hills or forests is not important. Silvanite usually manipulate to keep in control the advancing of the civilization and are far from tolerant. They are not violent but they are not tolerant.

If you pay attention you can see a lot of huts. Platforms. Even a gate built around the grove that is not a thing that Silvanus druids do.

Last edited by Rieline; 24/11/20 11:30 PM.
Rieline #738809 25/11/20 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rieline


It is not a good versus evil at all. As i explained several posts ago for the Druids the circle is something sacred so sacred that is usually well hidden and well shielded from outsider. Halsin accepted the refugees then the situation started to turn worse from the entire area. A chain of events happened Halsin disappeared and the druid found theyrself filled with problems they are just protecting their circle there is not evil about that. Even when the snakes killed the child Khaga seems very shocked about it probably she were not expecting the child to attempt to flee.


And I disagree. Kagha's actions are evil; she is threatening a young child with her deadly viper. As an adult elf she surely has lived long enough to understand that a child this young doesn't have the capacity to fully grasp the consequences of her actions, and that when faced with a deadly threat a child will very likely panic. Kagha, or any of the other druids, is capable of physically restraining a child without harming them, so they could have simply locked her up. She chooses instead to threaten Arabella with her viper, which is both cruel and an unnecessary use of force. It's the classic "mwhahaha chaotic evil" of harming someone weaker because you can. And Kagha seems shocked that a little kid acted out of fear in such a situation? I'd like to know what her wisdom score is, really.

The above adds nothing to the druids vs tiefling conflict in my opinion. Sometimes less is better in storytelling.

Vhaldez #738814 25/11/20 10:12 AM
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Faerun is full of "xenophobic" races. Every single one, in one way or another. That's DnD.

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