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ash elemental #738818 25/11/20 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline



And I disagree. Kagha's actions are evil; she is threatening a young child with her deadly viper. As an adult elf she surely has lived long enough to understand that a child this young doesn't have the capacity to fully grasp the consequences of her actions, and that when faced with a deadly threat a child will very likely panic. Kagha, or any of the other druids, is capable of physically restraining a child without harming them, so they could have simply locked her up. She chooses instead to threaten Arabella with her viper, which is both cruel and an unnecessary use of force. It's the classic "mwhahaha chaotic evil" of harming someone weaker because you can. And Kagha seems shocked that a little kid acted out of fear in such a situation? I'd like to know what her wisdom score is, really.

The above adds nothing to the druids vs tiefling conflict in my opinion. Sometimes less is better in storytelling.


arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.

Last edited by T2aV; 25/11/20 10:25 AM.
T2aV #738820 25/11/20 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by T2aV
arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.
Why does this take keep popping up? Last time I heard that all the Tieflings are "in a crime syndicate" and therefore irredeemable. Isn't it more that this is their ticket into Baldur's Gate? You know, the "noble refugee turned noble criminal" trope?

Vhaldez #738825 25/11/20 10:36 AM
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Kagha is a shadow druid like Faldorn (neutral evil).

As for the stealing a sacred relic, I disagree that all faerun religions would kill the ofender. Lawful good might if they are more lawful than good. But that would not be good even if the thief is an adult. It would be neutral being generous. After all, death penalty for theft is against human rights. It might be lawful, but still moraly wrong.

And I think that is exactly the point. Arabella is a thief, she is not inocent, but she doesn't deserve to be killed anyway. She deserves a more balanced punishment, not death. And a Tyr palladin would know that. Punish should fit the crime otherwise there is no justice, just revenge.

T2aV #738853 25/11/20 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by T2aV


arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.

And what a great syndicate it is, run by a bunch of kids hiding in a cave. Kagha could have easily locked her up without killing her; the druids are all adults (and spellcasters to boot), and Arabella is an unarmed little girl. Kagha chooses to use a viper, when she knows how deadly snakes are and how they act. As a druid she is fully aware of the high risk involved. I doubt a good-aligned deity would be in favor of executing a child in this situation. Simply following the law without mercy is lawful neutral, not good.

Vhaldez #738860 25/11/20 01:54 PM
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If the writing offends you it accomplished it's goal. Keep in mind that druids are supposed to be about upholding some natural order of sorts, and planetouched people, like tieflings are very much an anomaly to the natural order of the prime material plane. Sylvanus and druids in general are not about being fair, being just or even being nice, so I don't see why they wouldn't be hostile to a bunch of demon-looking creatures who have flames for eyes and steal their stuff. Appealing to modern sentiments of "human rights" makes no sense because tieflings are not humans, Kagha is not human, in fact we are talking about species that are only connected via their ability to interbreed. This doesn't mean that suddenly everyone is just another flavour of human.
Furthermore you could argue that the idea of "equality" or "human rights" are a product of civilization, so druids could be explained to be naturally opposed to that.
Just my two cents.

Vhaldez #738878 25/11/20 02:57 PM
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I don't think the writing is ofensive. But druids can be any neutral alignment. From neutral good, true neutral, legal neutral, chaotic neutral and neutral evil. Kagha is neutral evil.

Kagha is not human, but it is humanoid. And Tieflins don't upset the natural order more than a human. As far as chapter 1 goes, zentarim and the inn or the goblins are a bigger threath to balance.

EMC_V #738894 25/11/20 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by EMC_V
I don't think the writing is ofensive. But druids can be any neutral alignment. From neutral good, true neutral, legal neutral, chaotic neutral and neutral evil. Kagha is neutral evil.

Kagha is not human, but it is humanoid. And Tieflins don't upset the natural order more than a human. As far as chapter 1 goes, zentarim and the inn or the goblins are a bigger threath to balance.


Tieflings are quite literally creatures with extraplanar heritage. They carry the nature of the lower planes within their blood. At best druids would see them as diseased abominations, at worst they would be seen a corruption of nature. Humans and tieflings can't be equivocated in this case, because humans are a natural/native part of the world of Abeir-Toril and part of it's natural order, while tieflings are quite literally outsiders by nature. I would fully expect druids to dispatch extraplanar creatures on sight or to banish them.

Kagha not being human has no bearing on the issue at all. The point I wanted to make is that only humans are human, so talking about "human rights" makes no sense, especially amongst people who stand for untamed nature as opposed to civilization.

Also, the goblins being a threat doesn't mean that tieflings are suddenly not a threat. I think that if Kagha decided to exterminate them both, she would be authentic to her own professed value system.
Sylvanus himself is a morally unaligned deity, he doesn't care if his followers kill children or do things that would be considered evil. Sylvanus just wants results.

T2aV #738949 25/11/20 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by T2aV

Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.



I strongly disagree. This statement flies in the face of everything I've read about the Forgotten Realms, its good deities, and the good alignments in general.

Firesnakearies #738955 25/11/20 06:22 PM
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Tyr especially teaches that justice has to be tempered by mercy. And there are many faiths of benevolent gods, where the death penalty would never be a prospect for some desperate urchin, tiefling or not.

Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.

The only reason she is even in her position is because there is a lack of other leadership figures competing with her and she is the only one pushing for a "solution" in times of fear and turmoil. Now, because all of that is reflecting a lot of what is going on in the political climate everywhere in the real world, she might seem too modern for the setting. But really, this kind of situation would not be out of place in *any* historical time period, including the ones DnD or the Forgotten Realms are based on.

Last edited by Leuenherz; 25/11/20 06:23 PM.
Leuenherz #738976 25/11/20 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Leuenherz


Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.



How is she not justified? You are projecting your views on her. According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does, and if the ritual works that pretty much means that Sylvanus approves. Again, xenophobia against extraplanar outsiders is not something I would describe as "wrong" according to the value-system of a Sylvanus-worshipping druid. Sylvanus doesn't care about your morality as long as you get the job done.

Eldath #738994 25/11/20 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldath
According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does,



According to their religion, gnolls are well within their rights to murder and eat literally anyone they come across. I doubt many people in the Realms would consider them to be justified.

Firesnakearies #738995 25/11/20 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Eldath
According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does,



According to their religion, gnolls are well within their rights to murder and eat literally anyone they come across. I doubt many people in the Realms would consider them to be justified.

Gnolls are demonic spawns of Yeenoghu, they would face the same attitude from druids as tieflings.
However I agree, most of the realms would not consider them justified which is pretty much the reason why they have their own communities far from civilization. That being said, as druids of Sylvanus within their own domain they have the right to do as they please as long as Sylvanus is not offended. Why? Because it's their turf.

Eldath #739013 25/11/20 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Leuenherz


Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.



How is she not justified? You are projecting your views on her. According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does, and if the ritual works that pretty much means that Sylvanus approves. Again, xenophobia against extraplanar outsiders is not something I would describe as "wrong" according to the value-system of a Sylvanus-worshipping druid. Sylvanus doesn't care about your morality as long as you get the job done.


Your accusation rings false.

In fact, I do not recall ever reading material that confirms your characterization of Silvanus and his faith, nor the laws of his faith. It seems like conjecture on your part, based on your personal definition of what his alignment entails.

Nor do I think druidic attitude towards outsiders is as uniform as you describe. Let us not forget that fey (dryads among them) are outsiders as well.

Finally, I do not remember all the details of the druidic ritual, but druidic magic is not in and of itself divine in nature, and therefore not dependent on the approval of any god. Further, even for clerics, it is not common for a god to immediately thwart magic that is cast in a way that contradicts the tenets of their faith. Rather, withholding magic happens as a consequence of, often repeated, misconduct of their faithful.
Lastly, the ritual Kagha wants to perform and Silvanus's approval thereof are independent of her hostility towards the tieflings and her treatment of Arabella.

Kagha may reject common morality, reasoning based on her faith or otherwise. But that does not, in fact, absolve them of their immoral nature. After all, any evil character could use the same slippery slope if that were true.


TL;DR: Kagha a bad bitch

Last edited by Leuenherz; 25/11/20 11:01 PM.
Vhaldez #739082 26/11/20 04:44 AM
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Kagha is pretty well justified in imprisoning the girl for trying to steal their sacred idol. Which is what Kagha was attempting to do. She was never intent on using the death penalty, at least not based on what the game tells us. She also is visibly horrified when her snake kills the girl.

Arabella's death was an accident. One caused by Kagha's mishandling of the situation, but still an accident.

Out of curiosity does Halsin's punishment of Kagha change depending on if Arabella died or not? I've only freed Halsin twice so far and both times I was able to talk Kagha down with a nature check.

As for the actual topic of the thread, something I think would go a long way to making the Kagha choice more compelling is if we were directed toward investigating her and the shadow druids. So far in all my playthroughs I've never actually found the shadow druid evidence because I've not found anything that tells me I should be investigating anything in the first place. It seems like something you'd only stumble upon if you went snooping on your own.

I also want to punch that one elf druid in the face. One of Kagha's supporters. I can't remember his name but he's in the room with Rath and Loic.

Vhaldez #739091 26/11/20 06:12 AM
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Halsin’s punishment is the same no matter if the child dies or not. If Arabella dies, you do get to call him out on his leniency.

Eldath #739097 26/11/20 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldath

Gnolls are demonic spawns of Yeenoghu, they would face the same attitude from druids as tieflings.

Times must have changed then, because from what I remember BG and BG2 gave an example of a druid defending gnolls in character creation.

ash elemental #739123 26/11/20 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ash elemental

Times must have changed then, because from what I remember BG and BG2 gave an example of a druid defending gnolls in character creation.


Yah, 5e totally re-wrote gnoll lore and made them fleshy demon-spawn. They aren't just a beast race anymore which is very upsetting to me as it means it is impossible to make a gnoll PC for the Forgotten Realms.

Leuenherz #739140 26/11/20 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Leuenherz

In fact, I do not recall ever reading material that confirms your characterization of Silvanus and his faith, nor the laws of his faith.

Then you mustn't have read much about it at all. The followers of Silvanus are known for vigorously and VIOLENTLY defending their home turf.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

Nor do I think druidic attitude towards outsiders is as uniform as you describe.

The church of Sylvanus is exremely diverse when it comes to moral outlooks because Silvanus doesn't care about morality at all as long as your promote the protection of untamed wilderness. We are talking about a Druidic cult of Silvanus druids here, not of any other deity.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

druidic magic is not in and of itself divine in nature

Not only is this false in general, it's especially false in a circle of druids who get their spells from Silvanus.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

it is not common for a god to immediately thwart magic that is cast in a way that contradicts the tenets of their faith

False, again. The only deities that would roll with that are chaotic deities, like Lolth who allowed one of her clerics to heal Drizzt in one of the books. And then she punished the cleric, but that's Lolth being insane.

Last edited by Eldath; 26/11/20 11:14 AM.
SaurianDruid #739141 26/11/20 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SaurianDruid

Yah, 5e totally re-wrote gnoll lore and made them fleshy demon-spawn. They aren't just a beast race anymore which is very upsetting to me as it means it is impossible to make a gnoll PC for the Forgotten Realms.

That's disappointing to hear. smirk

Eldath #739182 26/11/20 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldath
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Hardly, they are known for opposing the expansion of industrious peoples, *sometimes* violently. They do not protect a "turf" like some kind of youth gang, they guard nature and its balance. The temporary presence of refugees and a bumbling theft attempt committed by a small child are a far cry from, say, a forest being chopped down to make room for a new town.

The specification you are now trying to promote in regards to Silvanus's druids did not at all exist in your earlier post (when you were talking about banishment of outsiders), but that's secondary. Silvanus is characterized as "harsh but fair" and as a distant deity. But that is not the same as the "by any means necessary" attitude you are trying to ascribe to him here. Even in nature, whose impartial fairness Silvanus emulates, the young of animals enjoy "puppy license". While it is perfectly in character for Silvanus to mete out punishment to a child or his approval thereof, it seems very unlikely he would choose death, not for Arabella's crime in any case.

I think you are operating on outdated information here (3.x, from the sounds of it). Druids may draw the power of their spells from different sources, just as clerics or paladins now can. I will concede, however, that this particular circle in all likelihood gets their magic from Silvanus, as a nature deity is still a *possible* source.

Yet, in another novel (Brimstone Angels), Torm himself only takes the magic of his young acolyte away after the latter has misused it at least once, and he does not reverse the results of the previous misuse.
5e does not provide a lot of information on this, except for paladins, but even if I think back, the loss of features and spells is always a consequence of something the character has already done (usually resulting in an alignment shift), which they are then being punished for.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless, I can tell we are getting lost in the minutiae of a sideshow here. In the interest of both of our time:

I think Kagha's actions are excessive and immoral, despite her attempted justifications. You argue that she is justified within the framework of her faith and value system.

We have both argued, presumably, to the best of our knowledge, though both largely without providing sources.

I have said my piece. If you have, agree to disagree and go our merry ways?

Last edited by Leuenherz; 26/11/20 02:09 PM.
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