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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
This is why Dark Sun is the best D&D setting. Gnomes have been entirely wiped out.


Awesome. The next D&D CRPG needs to be a Dark Sun game. D&D meets Mad Max meets Conan. Out with the garden gnomes.

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Originally Posted by Verte
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
This is why Dark Sun is the best D&D setting. Gnomes have been entirely wiped out.


You really hate short people.
Don't say that to the halflings you meet there

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I welcome a revival of Dark Sun. Gives them another chance to finally give Mul beards.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
This is why Dark Sun is the best D&D setting. Gnomes have been entirely wiped out.

It seems to me that the Dark Sun can be respected at least for the unusually represented fantasy races and cynicism.
Also, Dark Sun gave us the mules and half-giants... I miss them.


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Originally Posted by Verte
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
This is why Dark Sun is the best D&D setting. Gnomes have been entirely wiped out.


You really hate short people.



I don't hate short people. Gnomes are not people.

Also, Dark Sun halflings are AWESOME.

Last edited by Firesnakearies; 25/11/20 06:33 PM.
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Gnomes used to have a narrow niche back when dwarves and halflings were restricted from the arcane casting classes. But ever since 3E I guess, anybody can be any class, so there is no need for them anymore. D&D tried later to give gnomes a raison d'etre with the "tinker" stuff, but that never really worked for me. Svirfneblin have a story purpose in the Underdark, but other than that, the gnome has no need to exist anymore. However, I've always thought that the dwarves in Snow White were actually gnomes. Would a dwarf ever go by the name "Bashful"?

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Originally Posted by Argyle
Gnomes used to have a narrow niche back when dwarves and halflings were restricted from the arcane casting classes. But ever since 3E I guess, anybody can be any class, so there is no need for them anymore. D&D tried later to give gnomes a raison d'etre with the "tinker" stuff, but that never really worked for me. Svirfneblin have a story purpose in the Underdark, but other than that, the gnome has no need to exist anymore. However, I've always thought that the dwarves in Snow White were actually gnomes. Would a dwarf ever go by the name "Bashful"?


I think you're right about Snow White's dwarves actually being gnomes.
Then again they are just miners, not engineers and tinkers.
I dislike gnomes because they represent the progress of technology in a world where I don't want any advanced technology.

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I agree about the technology thing. I don't want machines in my fantasy. Beyond that, I just feel like gnomes don't fit, thematically, with the other core races.

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Half-elves > Half-orcs > Humans > Gnomes > Elves > Tieflings > Halflings > Dwarfs > Dragonborn

Fight me.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Half-elves > Half-orcs > Humans > Gnomes > Elves > Tieflings > Halflings > Dwarfs > Dragonborn

Fight me.
I'd remove Tieflings and Dragonborn as races all together and certainly put Elves above Humans.
It's funny how people have been saying that Gnomes are now superfluous, whenever I make up a world in my own head, it's the Halflings that I struggle to fit in somewhere, their culture is usually just Human to me.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Half-elves > Half-orcs > Humans > Gnomes > Elves > Tieflings > Halflings > Dwarfs > Dragonborn

Fight me.
I'd remove Tieflings and Dragonborn as races all together and certainly put Elves above Humans.
It's funny how people have been saying that Gnomes are now superfluous, whenever I make up a world in my own head, it's the Halflings that I struggle to fit in somewhere, their culture is usually just Human to me.

So true. Just look at letsplayers on youtube. Everyone is running a tiefling. It's quite annoying. Dragonborn are just as cringe.
At least Half-orcs would be flavorful and not the special snowflake race.
As for halflings, they always strike me as peasants. They are basically small statured peasants. They still have more validity then gnomes though.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
[I don't hate short people. Gnomes are not people.

Also, Dark Sun halflings are AWESOME.


They look humanoid to me.

Originally Posted by Eldath

Then again they are just miners, not engineers and tinkers.
I dislike gnomes because they represent the progress of technology in a world where I don't want any advanced technology.


Now they gained my sympathy but wouldn't play one. Dwarves are as far I would go with short people.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Half-elves > Half-orcs > Humans > Gnomes > Elves > Tieflings > Halflings > Dwarfs > Dragonborn

Fight me.
I'd remove Tieflings and Dragonborn as races all together and certainly put Elves above Humans.


...I'd remove humans altogether.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Sozz
I'd remove Tieflings and Dragonborn as races all together and certainly put Elves above Humans.
It's funny how people have been saying that Gnomes are now superfluous, whenever I make up a world in my own head, it's the Halflings that I struggle to fit in somewhere, their culture is usually just Human to me.
So true. Just look at letsplayers on youtube. Everyone is running a tiefling. It's quite annoying. Dragonborn are just as cringe.
At least Half-orcs would be flavorful and not the special snowflake race.
As for halflings, they always strike me as peasants. They are basically small statured peasants. They still have more validity then gnomes though.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
...I'd remove humans altogether.
Let me clarify, I liked better when being a Tiefling or a Dragonborn meant some ancestor of yours had a Demonic or Draconic encounter, which manifested in you, so you'd be an Human-Tiefling or a Dwarf-Dragonborn, I struggle with them being their own races.

Does anyone know what a half-Tiefling looks like? Or a half-Dragonborn? Have they been retconned to have always been a part of FR history, I think BladeDancer mention that during one of the reboots, Asmodeus retconned Tieflings into their current state but it still strains my ability to view the world realistically.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Sozz
I'd remove Tieflings and Dragonborn as races all together and certainly put Elves above Humans.
It's funny how people have been saying that Gnomes are now superfluous, whenever I make up a world in my own head, it's the Halflings that I struggle to fit in somewhere, their culture is usually just Human to me.
So true. Just look at letsplayers on youtube. Everyone is running a tiefling. It's quite annoying. Dragonborn are just as cringe.
At least Half-orcs would be flavorful and not the special snowflake race.
As for halflings, they always strike me as peasants. They are basically small statured peasants. They still have more validity then gnomes though.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
...I'd remove humans altogether.
Let me clarify, I liked better when being a Tiefling or a Dragonborn meant some ancestor of yours had a Demonic or Draconic encounter, which manifested in you, so you'd be an Human-Tiefling or a Dwarf-Dragonborn, I struggle with them being their own races.

Does anyone know what a half-Tiefling looks like? Or a half-Dragonborn? Have they been retconned to have always been a part of FR history, I think BladeDancer mention that during one of the reboots, Asmodeus retconned Tieflings into their current state but it still strains my ability to view the world realistically.


Yeah, I agree. I'd much prefer "dilutable" blood. Planar or dragon. I really dislike that tiefling retcon, one of my favourite things about tieflings is that they're so diverse.You could have Annah, who almost looks human or clearly fiendish Ei-Vene with orange eyes and claws, or digitigrade tieflings, or ones that look almost like fiends. Different kinds of fiends. Devils, demons, yugoloths, rakshasas, hags... And manifest whatever trait of those. And now they're... quite uniform. (Credit where it's due though; I think Larian managed tieflings fairly well within the constraints of 5e lore and video game format. Especially custom tieflings. NPCs maybe less so.)

Could you explain something about dragonborn to me, though? I came to 5e straight from 2AD&D (with bits of 3/3.5e) and just accepted dragonborn, because in my D&D reading years ago I came across a very similar race (dragon descendants similar to planetouched). Yet recently I realized what I'd read was just homebrew and dragonborn didn't exist until 4e. But you're saying dragonborn used to be like old tieflings; was there such a race after all before The Great Mess of 4e?

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Most of my experience is with third edition where 'Templating' was a thing. I believe you found in the Monster Manual Tieflings and their celestial counterparts had a "Planetouched Characters" blurb that told you what abilities you'd gain and your level adjustment as well as a issue of Dragon magazine that incorporated the elemental planes.

I remember having this same crisis when 4e made them a race, I thought I had suffered a Mandela Effect for Dragonborn being in 3rd Edition but I think what I was thinking of were called Half-Dragon, even though they're called Half-Dragon I think it wasn't supposed to be necessarily literal. I had to look that up because I still have a distinct memory of creating a dragonborn character being used as an example of templating in either the MM or the DMG. It could also have been in Dragon magazine, I'll keep looking around until I'm satisfied.

All that said I had to look this up online it's been so long since I had those books handy so take everything I remember with a grain of salt.

Edit: there's also the implied Draconic nature of the Sorcerer class that I'm now remembering and could be conflating things.

Last edited by Sozz; 26/11/20 01:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Most of my experience is with third edition where 'Templating' was something I believe you found in the Monster Manual, had Tieflings and their celestial counter parts had a "Planetouched Characters" blurp that told you what abilities you'd gain and your level adjustment as well as a issue of Dragon magazine that incorporated the elemental planes.

I remember having this same crisis when 4e made them a race, I thought I had suffered a Mandela Effect for Dragonborn being in 3rd Edition but I think what I was thinking of were called Half-Dragon, even though they're called Half-Dragon I think it wasn't supposed to be necessarily literal. I had to look that up because I still have a distinct memory of creating a dragonborn character being used as an example of templating in either the MM or the DMG. It could also have been in Dragon magazine, I'll keep looking around until I'm satisfied.

All that said I had to look this up online it's been so long since I had those books handy so take everything I remember with a grain of salt.

Edit: there's also the implied Draconic nature of the Sorcerer class that I'm now remember and could be conflating things.


Thanks for the explanation! Yeah, there's also half-dragons, dragonkin, dragonspawn, dragonborn of Bahamut, draconic creature template... The homebrew I saw was fairly similar to the template. Maybe what you're thinking about were the dragonborn of Bahamut? They were a different type, pre-4e.

I kind of wish they made a variant Dragonborn, a Toril one.

Aand... Not a huge fan of the lineage system from TCoE, but perhaps it could be used to make templates or something akin to them? Would be nice to see templates back, they seemed like a interesting mechanic (if quite complicated, as fitting for 3e).

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Dragonborn technically existed in the 3E Forgotten Realms, although it was because of a not very well received or widely spread splatbook.
Basically Bahamut changed volunteer humans who wanted to fight evil dragons in dragonborn. But those were few individuals.

The majority of dragonborn came from 4E lore when the world of FR merged with another world and a country of dragonborn was planeshifted over. On their world they were a slave race to true dragons. In 5E that place planeshifted back, but as dragonborn had by then also settled outside of that area several communities remained in the forgotten realms.
In FR dragonborn were never directly related to dragons. Offspring of dragon/humanoid pairings are half-dragons (which were never really playable very well) and further down the line draconic blood serves as explanation for sorcerers.

Originally Posted by Eldath

I dislike gnomes because they represent the progress of technology in a world where I don't want any advanced technology.


Most stuff gnomes invent fit into the technology level of the FR. D&D in general is early renaissance and there specialists had a basic understanding of chemistry although often coupled with alchemy and there was also construction of clockwork, mainly in the Islamic part of the (real) world that had its golden era during that time.

Last edited by Ixal; 26/11/20 12:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal


Most stuff gnomes invent fit into the technology level of the FR. D&D in general is early renaissance and there specialists had a basic understanding of chemistry although often coupled with alchemy and there was also construction of clockwork, mainly in the Islamic part of the (real) world that had its golden era during that time.

Yeah but couldn't like humans do that?
I just really hate gnomes and want them gone.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Ixal


Most stuff gnomes invent fit into the technology level of the FR. D&D in general is early renaissance and there specialists had a basic understanding of chemistry although often coupled with alchemy and there was also construction of clockwork, mainly in the Islamic part of the (real) world that had its golden era during that time.

Yeah but couldn't like humans do that?
I just really hate gnomes and want them gone.



Humans certainly also know that. After all there are several highly advanced, for D&D, human nations. But gnomes are simply a bit better.

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