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Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.


Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, you're wrong. He says he never thought about it, and now that it's happened, it makes him sick. He hates it. It's hard to say anything about origin because we don't have (official) access to the characters.


Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.



Not in this dialog, lol. Most of the time, he is more hypocritical or manipulative, but he is also very picky. If you do something that he doesn't like, you will notice it. He will call you stupid, and it will not be sarcasm. He will really think so.


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To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Am I the only one who thinks Astarion is saying the opposite of what he actually thinks most of the time? The guy oozes sarcasm and irony.

No you aren't.
He is acting like most of the people over on forums, if you don't know how to push his buttons.


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Originally Posted by Eldath
To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.



Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


Last edited by Nyloth; 26/11/20 01:38 PM.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Eldath
To me it just seems like he is bitching about the wine and tears everyone down around him like the petty little tyrant as he is. He is trying to be endearing by cutely playing up how he is a bad boy.
Don't get me wrong, Astarion is a bad guy, but I think he is far from irredeemable.



Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.



I think the only way to redeem him is to cure him of vampirism, maybe he doesnt even need a redemption, just a change of heart, I feel like his story is rooted towards Cazador and whatever happens with him will obviously effect the outcome of how Astarion will be in future.

I just have a feeling because we are given either the "heroic" or "villan" option regarding the party, we will have more options like that in future, and it will have a major impact on the companions and their outlook at the end

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Originally Posted by A Clown


I think the only way to redeem him is to cure him of vampirism, maybe he doesnt even need a redemption, just a change of heart, I feel like his story is rooted towards Cazador and whatever happens with him will obviously effect the outcome of how Astarion will be in future.

I just have a feeling because we are given either the "heroic" or "villan" option regarding the party, we will have more options like that in future, and it will have a major impact on the companions and their outlook at the end


Astarion says we can just kill his master or he can become a coven leader if he drinks blood. I think the second option is evil. I don't know what happens to a vampire if someone kill hes leader's. hm… Maybe this is a "good" option.

Last edited by Nyloth; 26/11/20 03:11 PM.

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I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing? from that view point I think his disposition at the party could stem from his feeling alienated from the mortal world, even when he's been lead to behave morally...but it's not really a lot to go on.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing?


I wondered about that too. I know it's a thing in other vampire lore, but where does this game stand on it? I didn't understand the exchange about the wine at all because I don't drink wine and I couldn't tell if the narrator's description backed up Astarion or contradicted him.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't know enough about FR vampire lore to know, but I thought his line about the wine being sour, which you can taste and have described as rich, was a result of vampires not being able to enjoy food. Is that a thing? from that view point I think his disposition at the party could stem from his feeling alienated from the mortal world, even when he's been lead to behave morally...but it's not really a lot to go on.


I thought the same, that he was describing the wine, and I think the whole enjoying food is a thing, since he said tea isnt really his drink, either hes a coffee man or he just doesnt like tea!

But yeah I do think that he might like getting used to the idea of being a "hero" if you keep taking him on that path!

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Originally Posted by A Clown
he said tea isnt really his drink, either hes a coffee man or he just doesnt like tea!


Tea isn't really his drink because he prefers blood! Vampire humor! laughs in vampire

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Tea isn't really his drink because he prefers blood! Vampire humor! laughs in vampire

Blood is most likely Astarion's comfort drink lol
Seriously he doesn't act like typical DnD vampire at all.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.

Last edited by Eldath; 26/11/20 04:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.
It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


Me too, but I can understand the argument that if we get player-influenced redemption arcs, we should get also get corruption arcs, which are much less prevalent - I can't even think of one off the top of my head, except Anomen (sort of), and what happened in KotOR II.

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I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


Me three. I think some people are just good at ruining their own fun. If they can identify a theme, plot device or such they decide they don't like it. For them dissection always murders.

Even the word 'trope' needs to be used with a certain degree of irony because the word itself implies that a given device or motif has become tired.

My cleric is out to save some souls. If anything I want more of this.

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Originally Posted by Eldath

I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.


But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o


Originally Posted by Sozz

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.



Because people believe that you can not love a villain for his cunning, ingenuity and cruelty, that everything must be "fixed". And I like villains, I don't like corrected versions, ESPECIALLY when it BASIS on romantic relationship... Believe me, this is quite common, and it looks ridiculous. Also you can be a hero in almost every game. But not in every game you can be a villain. This is rare.
Of course, everyone plays as they want. I just explained why I think it's forced and boring.

Last edited by Nyloth; 26/11/20 05:22 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sozz

It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I think the "no matter what" part is exactly what makes him a bit lawful. He does NOT compromise on it. There are no such commitments on the chaotic side of things. It's spontaneous. However since Astarion is both somewhat spontanenous and somewhat commited, I would settle on him being neutral on the law-chaos axis, and evil on the good-evil axis because his goals are all self-serving, even at the cost of other people's lives.
I think commitment and chaos don't really mix, because there is an expected consistency. Consistency leads to regularity, regularity tends towards lawfulness.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth

But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o




Astarion doesn't seek destruction for it's own sake. He seeks destruction with a set goal in mind that is: freedom or starting his own vampire sex-dungeon.
Also I just don't think freedom = chaotic.
A lawful good guy is perfectly free to be who he wants to be and he is lawful good, because living up to those values allows him to be what he wants to be. Freedom is the ability to be what you are. It encompasses all of the alignment system, and it's not exclusive to the chaotic segment.

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Of all the potential redemption arcs Astarian and Gale seem the least likely to change.

Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path. But I think the wine scene really brings out the pathos in the character. The wine is excellent but he can take no pleasure in it. For him enjoyment only comes in the form of fleeting moments. That's the curse, he's been doomed to only find pleasure in the taste of blood and he has surrendered to that fate by developing a sadist's taste for cruelty. And now he's lost, no longer does he have a master to tell him what to do and, having defined himself against another for 200 years, he's struggling with who he is. Afloat in asea of misery he found isolated islands of pleasure in acts of seduction and of cruelty -- now he has found another place to anchor, will that be enough? He could use you as safe harbor to develop a taste for kindness or he could succumb to the fantasy that he will be happy once he becomes master and Cazador the slave.

Eager to see what happens with him.

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