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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

Well, we see it differently.

I think Astarion is one of those who will use your help if you are kind to him, but sooner or later will betray you. I also don't think the source of his evil is just vampirism. And the problem is that it's a CHAOTIC evil, not any other subspecies. This is not a habit. Not an injury. Not a law for him. This is a kind of entertainment, pleasure. In fact, if you try to fix him, you will destroy the basis of his personality.

A lot of people think he's a victim of his master, I think he's always been an asshole. And if that's the case, then fix a 200+ year-old asshole... well, it looks very illogical. For me ofc...

But Yes, this is just my opinion. If they give him an arch of redemption, I just want it to be logical, not just because the fans want it to be.


I just can't see him as chaotic. He has a law: "stay alive and stay on top no matter what".
That just strikes me as neutral evil, that is to say, self-serving dialed up to 11. The reason he is not lawful evil is because he will always put himself first, and the reason he is not chaotic is because he is fully committed to his own freedom and survival.
I think we will get a redemption arc IF and only IF Astarion manages to forego either his desire for survival or freedom. That would naturally result in him dedicating himself to a purpose outside of himself. It would break his internal vicious cycle of wanting to be alive at all costs pushing him towards enslavement and enslavement pushing him towards wanting to be free.
This is very hard to write however and I'm afraid that Larian may not be able to handle it.
Or maybe they will surprise us and pull of something genius.
Or maybe he really is irredeemable.
I'm very hyped.
It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I've always seen Lawful Evil as the one with the 'higher calling', if you will, while Neutral Evil as kind of like the out-for-themselves chaotic neutral but willing to go the extra step
Originally Posted by Eldath


Originally Posted by Sozz

It's the "no matter what" there that does it, and what part of fully committed to his own freedom doesn't make him chaotic, if he was fully committed to other people's freedom that would be classic Chaotic Good, no?
I think that the difference between being neutral, chaotic, and lawful can be pretty murky but the difference between Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, to me, is usually some kind of principal you'd put over yourself.

I'm always down for a good redemption arc, I don't understand the people who've said that its a tired trope.


I think the "no matter what" part is exactly what makes him a bit lawful. He does NOT compromise on it. There are no such commitments on the chaotic side of things. It's spontaneous. However since Astarion is both somewhat spontanenous and somewhat commited, I would settle on him being neutral on the law-chaos axis, and evil on the good-evil axis because his goals are all self-serving, even at the cost of other people's lives.
I think commitment and chaos don't really mix, because there is an expected consistency. Consistency leads to regularity, regularity tends towards lawfulness.


I think what makes him chaotic is that his current goal is quite crazy, wanting to control the tadpoles straight out of the bat despite knowing jack about them, and he also wants to kill as much people as he can while pursuing it. A lawful evil, like Lae'zel, or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

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I think Gale has the potential for an arc, but not so much focused around redemption as dealing with hubris. Lae'zel also doesn't seem to be headed for redemption, exactly, just realizing that her ideals and reality don't measure up, and deciding what to do about it.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

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Still think my alignment allocations, such as they are hold weight

Astarion: Neutral Evil (chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Lawful Neutral (Evil leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)

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Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.


No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.


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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.


Pretty sure she'd have no powers if she didn't belive/follow the teachings of her neutral evil goddess. Not 100% about it, guessing it works like for paladins, but i'd disagree even if it wasn't so based on what we're shown in the game. She very clearly puts her needs above those of others, and is also very much willing to commit evil acts if they benefit her.

I would say she's a special flair of neutral evil, though. She's obviously got an instinctual sense of what's good and what's evil, it's just that she was brought up by the latter. Reminds me of Morrigan from DA:O actually.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Nyloth

But it seemed to me that chaotic evil seeks destruction and freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong. Astarion seeks to destroy everything in his path for fun, and he also seeks freedom. Most of his actions are not for profit, he seeks pleasure. And he finds it in murder of others. Or maybe that description of chaotic evil that I follow has been incorrectly translated? o..o

Astarion doesn't seek destruction for it's own sake. He seeks destruction with a set goal in mind that is: freedom or starting his own vampire sex-dungeon.
Also I just don't think freedom = chaotic.
A lawful good guy is perfectly free to be who he wants to be and he is lawful good, because living up to those values allows him to be what he wants to be. Freedom is the ability to be what you are. It encompasses all of the alignment system, and it's not exclusive to the chaotic segment.
I think freedom in this context is usually a euphemism for any hierarchical system that subsumes the individual will, Lawful alignments believe in a reciprocity of actions regulated by a third-party, in a society these are Laws, personally it's some kind of personal ethic that regulates your interactions with others and which you expect to see reciprocated. Chaotic alignments see this as a pretense towards tyranny, and believe there can be no law, third-party, or ethic that can be expected to replicate such reciprocity. So Astarion can have a personal code that totally self-interested and it doesn't make him Lawful, because he doesn't see himself as being subject to a external hierarchy. The difference for a Neutral character is that they don't believe in hierarchies per se but in unstructured principals that dictate actions without subsuming an individual's will, but also don't view the gratification of your own will as an ends unto themselves.

Did I mention how murky this is?

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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

Does that mean there can be no organized religion for chaotic/neutral gods?

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Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Because people believe that you can not love a villain for his cunning, ingenuity and cruelty, that everything must be "fixed". And I like villains, I don't like corrected versions, ESPECIALLY when it BASIS on romantic relationship... Believe me, this is quite common, and it looks ridiculous. Also you can be a hero in almost every game. But not in every game you can be a villain. This is rare.
Of course, everyone plays as they want. I just explained why I think it's forced and boring.


That would only be an issue if they force you to redeem Astarion, I'm with you %100 on gating characterization behind a romance plot.
The most interesting character quests in BG:2 were the ones where you had an influence on the alignment of your companion, if they didn't continue this in BG:3 I think it would be a huge missed opportunity

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.



We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

Could you please ... not answer me with that information?.. Thanks.


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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.
It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).
Which could explain why Daisy appears as Cazador in his dreams; it's to scare him into using the worm powers. Later dreams she might tempt him by offering to make him more powerful than Cazador instead.



Exactly. He is interested in powerful objects and the tadpole because he knows only something powerful can truly free him from Cazador.
I mean, he is quite low in Maslov's hierarchy of needs right now.

EDIT:
I can't find the dialogue right now, but I think I remember that he says he could become a full vampire, but it's enough for him to just kill Cazador. That's why I think he just wants to be free at any cost and becoming a full vampire is simply one of ways to achieve this goal.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I think freedom in this context is usually a euphemism for any hierarchical system that subsumes the individual will, Lawful alignments believe in a reciprocity of actions regulated by a third-party, in a society these are Laws, personally it's some kind of personal ethic that regulates your interactions with others and which you expect to see reciprocated. Chaotic alignments see this as a pretense towards tyranny, and believe there can be no law, third-party, or ethic that can be expected to replicate such reciprocity. So Astarion can have a personal code that totally self-interested and it doesn't make him Lawful, because he doesn't see himself as being subject to a external hierarchy. The difference for a Neutral character is that they don't believe in hierarchies per se but in unstructured principals that dictate actions without subsuming an individual's will, but also don't view the gratification of your own will as an ends unto themselves.

Did I mention how murky this is?


I think neutral evil characters believe in a hierarchy but they are (supposed to be) on top. After all they put themselves first. If you put something first that's already a hierarchy.
I firmly believe Astarion to be Neutral Evil, the reason why I mention lawful a lot because he has some lawful and some chaotic tendencies, but he is not really on either extreme.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Innateagle
or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

Does that mean there can be no organized religion for chaotic/neutral gods?

Its an interesting point, but I would draw on the notion of a neutral evil deity and their relation to their clerics as opposed to their worshipers. i think it is perfectly possible for neutral deities to have hierarchies, but anyone in their hierarchy is always going to be towards the lawful end of the spectrum regardless of the alignment of the god because they are subsumed/submitted to said hierarchy which they in some way have to believe in: they believe the gods clerical hierarchy is as things should be, which is lawful. Chaotic gods are a whole other thing, but I guess an actual chaotic evil cleric, when encountering another cleric of the same god would be just as likely to kill them to prove their superiority in the eyes of their deity with the hope of further blessings than work together.

Edit; I think I would draw on the example of lolth who is a chaotic evil deity but the drow in general are neutral evil, and the church of lolth structure leans towards lawful evil

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Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?

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Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yeah, Astarian wants to become the strongest vampire lord in Faerun and it will be difficult to turn him from that path.


I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game
when we can talk to the magic mirror as any party member we want. The mirror asks the character what he would like to see there the most. Astarion has 3 options: to see his real home he haven't seen for centuries, to see how to control the tadpole and to see Cazador burning in the sun. No great power or becoming a vampire lord.


I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.


Very interesting. We'll see how this turns out -- I think you are on to something in him wanting to be free but I also think there is another part of Astarian that doesn't really know what to do with the freedom he already has. So he's caught between wanting even more freedom and trying to get rid of the freedom. Under Cazador's yoke his life had a purpose and the desire to control the tadpole is filling that void but what after that? Killing Cazador but then? What to do with the next 200 years? He's a like a sulky version of Dr Who after a regeneration. Who am I now? What do I like? Clearly not saving tieflings . . . perhaps I'll find the answer in sex?

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?


I'm talking about dream… Who the heck is Daisy??? As far as I know, this dream is only available in mod… so…


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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Still think my alignment allocations, such as they are hold weight

Astarion: Neutral Evil (chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Lawful Neutral (Evil leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)



Pretty close to my guesses but I have Lae-zel pegged at Lawful Evil and Shadowheart at Neutral Evil (good leaning)

Long ago there a dragon magazine that had recommendations for how to role play alignment taking into account the character's wisdom and intelligence. Some evil characters would just be selfish and not be interested in philosophical discussions of the nature of good and evil. Someone like Korgan for example "I hate to be bastard here . . . " (no you don't Korgan, no you don't) Others would have a highly developed philosophy to justify their actions -- some realms equivalent of social darwinism. "Of course I dominate others, domination is part of the fabric of this world. The strong will always prey on the weak. Judge me if you like but I see the world for what it is and act accordingly. I watch you stumbling around blinded by pretty illusions like justice and the sight fills me with contempt"

I always saw neutral evil as "evil, by any means that are effective" Shar is like the others in game of thrones, Shar wants to bring about the long night. If propping up a tyranny gets the clergy closer to that goal, great. If persuading the peasants to overthrow King McGoody that's what they will do. For the Sharran it doesn't matter if the means involve propping up evil institutions or tearing down good ones what matters is that darkness prevails.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Nyloth

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?


I'm talking about dream… Who the heck is Daisy??? As far as I know, this dream is only available in mod… so…





In the code, daisy dress is the name of the clothing of the "Who do you dream of" character wears.

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