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To be honest, I just find the character creator to be woefully limited and lacking as is... and it's been disheartening for me to hear Larian talk about how great it is and how in depth and expansive it is, when really, actually, it's positively pitiful compared to what it ought to be. They've commented to champion how it's the most detailed and in-depth character creation system they've ever put forward, and while that may be true that only really says negative things about them than it does anything even remotely positive.

I don't want to get bogged down in discussions of ethnicity particularly - the overall truth is that the character creator truly does need to be much, much better than it is.

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Much as I’d love to see more customisation, at this stage I’d happily trade that for more available races. Even introducing Dragonborn, a PHB race, is going to be a lot of work. And there are so many more they could add, which would give the game a lot of variety (aasimar, tabaxi, tortles, genasi would all be high on my list)

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I think the character creation is by and large pretty good. Also mods will solve many of the cosmetic issues with this game, and Larian expect modders to come up with several versions of BG3 as it was stated in the last interview.

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Oh, Eldath. The degree to which you "just don't get it" on this issue is staggering. I have a lot of arguments jumping around in my head right now, but really I am not the person best qualified to make them. I hope that the original poster comes back to the thread and drops some education on this joint.

See, I grew up in a world where practically every person represented (ESPECIALLY the "good guys") in any form of media, folklore, fiction, legendry (possibly that's not a word, also possibly it means the same thing as 'folklore', but I'm including it anyway), and art looked basically just like me and my parents. As our worldviews, perspectives, and personalities are mostly NOT created by us consciously out of thin air, but instead are SHAPED by billions of tiny, accumulative influences throughout our lives (especially our childhood), seeing and hearing about "all white people, all the time" guided me into certain ideas. It did this quite invisibly, making it seem to my brain like everything I thought about the world was just "common sense" or "obvious", and not a particular narrow perspective based almost entirely on all of these specific influences during my childhood. So, to me, growing up in that world, it just "made sense" that everything related to whiteness was "normal", that it was the default, that it wasn't one of a myriad of equally important varieties of humanity and culture, but simply the baseline standard to which all other, more "exotic" forms and ideas are compared against as being the "different" thing. The Other thing.

This is part of what is meant when people talk about "white privilege", which is not a topic I am expert on so I won't go into it other than to say that I definitely have it, and I definitely didn't KNOW I had it for a good long portion of my life. But for me it was the privilege of seeing myself and my family represented everywhere, all the time, and painted as the heroes, the visionaries, the builders, the geniuses, the trailblazers, the leaders, and the just plain NORMAL people. So I never had to feel like an Other. I never had to feel like I wasn't valuable to my society. I never had to feel the sting of people actively hating me or discriminating against me or making crude stereotyping jokes at my expense, just because of the genetic variety of human that I happened to (through no doing of my own) be born as.

I never had to worry about whether or not the cops were going to just shoot me for no reason.

Because I was the default. I was normal. I was the standard by which everything ELSE was measured.

Whenever people of color, or people of any other marginalized group ask for more representation, it's not just about them "feeling better about themselves", or being "shallow", or whatever other out-of-touch tripe was expressed upthread. It's also, among many other things, about the world we ALL live in, and how it influences everyone, how it shapes every child's mind into the kind of adults they will become. And how it CONTINUES to mold us, guide us, infectiously mutate our worldview on an ongoing, relentless basis. You may think you're just personally manufacturing all of your own ideas from whole cloth, but I promise you that you are not. None of us are. And so things like representation do have a very real effect on how everyone sees the world, and their fellow human beings. If you have a world in which whiteness and all things associated with it remain the default, remain the definition of "normal", and everything else is Other, then it is INEVITABLE that racism, prejudice, discrimination, and yes, even the murder of black people by the police will be present.

And as much as I can sit here and type words about all of this, the fact is I can't ever REALLY understand. Because I haven't had to live in that "Other" world. So I don't even know what it feels like, beyond what I've heard from people about their lives. But we don't have to share someone's experiences to have sympathy for their pains.

So maybe, just MAYBE, when someone who has faced struggles you know nothing of kindly asks (or even if they ask UN-kindly) for a few minor changes to the way that our culture continues to be formed, asks for such a tiny thing as to be able to see THEIR kind of people in video games more, the usual suspects might consider sitting this one out before they immediately jump in and start disagreeing or making tangential arguments that distract from the actual point. Leave that "actually, I think that ALL lives matter" flavor of statement (not that anyone here is talking about that, but it's cut from the same cloth) where they belong: in the silent vault of your own mind.


This isn't just to Eldath, by the way. It's to everyone who pops up every time one of these threads appears, either derailing or fighting to protect their version of "normal".


Last edited by Firesnakearies; 04/12/20 01:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
snip


You are basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you is by default wrong and mustn't be listened to. Please keep your "education" to yourself.
You're just trying to ignore me because you project whiteness onto me, which is a total failiure on your part, because I'm not white.

It's kind of a sad day when some privileged western liberal can just tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because you disagree with her and therefore you're morally evil while she virtuesignals about poor people of colour but only as long as they agree with her.
Keep your hypocritical western morality to yourself, mods will solve all of these problems anyway, so you can have your ethnic elves or whatever floats your boat.
You don't see me complaining about this stupidity even though my ethnicity isn't represented even amongst the playable humans in this game, and I'm glad for it because my race is not some bludgeoning tool to force people into submission.

Last edited by Eldath; 04/12/20 01:05 PM.
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Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.
In addition, in the FR setting, there are already dark-skinned elves - wild elves.
[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f...p/width/360/height/450?cb=20200929112108[/img]
They are also much larger than other elves. Heh, it seems to me that one of Irenicus's ancestors was one of them.


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Let's avoid getting into arguments of real-life race and racism. Nothing good is likely to come of it.

There is no problem discussing what racial option you want to see represented in the game - that is welcome feedback. What is not wanted is becoming judgemental about individual posters.

Last edited by Sadurian; 04/12/20 01:32 PM.
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real elves look like this:


[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.

I'd have more respect for the D&D lore if the creators didn't go cherry picking ftom various folklores and mythologies themselves. It's a patchwork setting anyway. So at this point tbh I don't care if more variety would be inconsistent with lore. All the playable fantasy races look very human-like to me, including the gith or tieflings. The body types, body postures, face mimicry - it's all the same. Elongating a skull or making face features more "pixie" isn't going to make them look less human. That's just a bit of cosmetics you might do for a Halloween costume. Mind flayers are about the only species that looks alien.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
snip


You are basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you is by default wrong and mustn't be listened to. Please keep your "education" to yourself.
You're just trying to ignore me because you project whiteness onto me, which is a total failiure on your part, because I'm not white.

It's kind of a sad day when some privileged western liberal can just tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because you disagree with her and therefore you're morally evil while she virtuesignals about poor people of colour but only as long as they agree with her.
Keep your hypocritical western morality to yourself, mods will solve all of these problems anyway, so you can have your ethnic elves or whatever floats your boat.
You don't see me complaining about this stupidity even though my ethnicity isn't represented even amongst the playable humans in this game, and I'm glad for it because my race is not some bludgeoning tool to force people into submission.



I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, to you as well as others in both THIS thread and similar threads that I have seen, is that you appear to not UNDERSTAND what the original post is actually ABOUT. It's not that your opinions are WRONG, necessarily, it's that they aren't relevant to the heart of the topic raised by the poster.

I actually anticipated the "I'm not white" statement, which is why I phrased my post very specifically to NOT say that you, yourself (or any poster here) is actually white, or even to directly imply it. All of my discussion about whiteness was framed in the context of my OWN whiteness.

Whatever your ethnic background is, it's also not relevant to the points we are arguing here. Because you're saying the same KINDS of things that privileged white people (or other majority groups in various places around the world) often say in response to ANY request by a marginalized group to make the world a little more equitable. And they display a simple lack of understanding of what the other person is actually saying. You try to make it about other things, and it's not about other things. It's about the thing that it's about.

Privileged western liberal? Yeah, I'll cop to that. I am exactly that. I know that I am PROFOUNDLY privileged, in fact, compared to literally the majority of people on this planet. I'm very grateful for the comforts and advantages that my life provides (most of which I did not earn in any way other than coming out of the correct uterus). Does that mean I should simply not care about the issues that affect billions of other humans who don't share my privileges? "Not my problem, fuck em"? Is that what I should think?

I always find it really sad when someone uses the term "virtue signalling" any time someone expresses any thought which is based in empathy or social justice. It's like people who fall back on that ridiculous term can't even CONCEIVE of the idea that someone else might ACTUALLY care about issues which they do not care about, that someone else might ACTUALLY be speaking from a place of compassion and desire for fairness, that someone might, y'know, actually be SINCERE. It's like that is a totally foreign idea, because the only way they can imagine a person communicating is in some kind of tactical, cynical way just to engineer others' opinion of them. It's like they think that no one in the world actually BELIEVES in anything, that it's ALL just a big show in order to impress people. Is that what you think? Does that mean that you don't believe in anything? Does that mean that you have no convictions? Is every word out of your mouth some kind of gambit just to maneuver on some invisible chess board of human interaction?

Look, I'm sure some people really DO "virtue signal", in some cases. The idea is probably not entirely fictional. But when I see people use the term, they just automatically jump to paint ANY "liberal" messaging as that. They don't even consider the chance that the person they are accusing of this might actually care about what they're talking about. That sounds like a very depressing view of other people to have to carry around.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.

I'd have more respect for the D&D lore if the creators didn't go cherry picking ftom various folklores and mythologies themselves. It's a patchwork setting anyway. So at this point tbh I don't care if more variety would be inconsistent with lore. All the playable fantasy races look very human-like to me, including the gith or tieflings. The body types, body postures, face mimicry - it's all the same. Elongating a skull or making face features more "pixie" isn't going to make them look less human. That's just a bit of cosmetics you might do for a Halloween costume. Mind flayers are about the only species that looks alien.

That is, you do not take into account the cultural and external characteristics of races?
Or do you just think that in order to make a fantasy race different from humans, you need to make it as strange and alien as possible?
Perhaps I misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that with such a logic, all fantasy races, from trolls to yugoloths, can be called "people".


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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Let's avoid getting into arguments of real-life race and racism. Nothing good is likely to come of it.

There is no problem discussing what racial option you want to see represented in the game - that is welcome feedback. What is not wanted is becoming judgemental about individual posters.



Okay, got it. I'll drop it. My last post went through before I saw you post this.

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Firesnakearies: I meant it when I said to drop the arguments about real-life racism. Yet you continued. Do not get dragged into this argument again. I'm cutting you a little slack because of the timing.

For anyone else thinking of continuing the racism argument - just don't.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Firesnakearies: I meant it when I said to drop the arguments about real-life racism. Yet you continued. Do not get dragged into this argument again. I'm cutting you a little slack because of the timing.

For anyone else thinking of continuing the racism argument - just don't.



Understood.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I actually anticipated the "I'm not white" statement

Good, because I'm not, but that doesn't invalidate my arguments.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Whatever your ethnic background is, it's also not relevant to the points we are arguing here.

Then neither is OP's entire post, nor is this thread. Either accept that D&D is not the real world, and act accordingly, and have fun with it, OR admit that you want to push real life politics into a fantasy setting. There is no way to sell whatever you're doing as a non-political move.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

But when I see people use the term, they just automatically jump to paint ANY "liberal" messaging as that.

Because it is just that. You basically admitted that people who disagree with you shouldn't be listened to.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

It's not that your opinions are WRONG, necessarily, it's that they aren't relevant


It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.

Last edited by Eldath; 04/12/20 02:07 PM.
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I always loved the way eldar/dark eldar were drawn as a way to represent the alienness of "elves"

all from here:
https://www.deviantart.com/beckjann

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

There's a degree of alienness to their faces which elves in BG3 do not have, because they are just humans with pointy ears.

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Those are very good, even though I think the headspikes are a bit much.

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Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

That is, you do not take into account the cultural and external characteristics of races?
Or do you just think that in order to make a fantasy race different from humans, you need to make it as strange and alien as possible?
Perhaps I misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that with such a logic, all fantasy races, from trolls to yugoloths, can be called "people".

I'd expect an alien to differ in not just looks, but also their lifestyle, culture, behavior, means of communication, how they perceive the world, how they interact, etc. All this all should be shaped by their biological characteristics. Even if they are just imaginary.

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Originally Posted by Eldath
Those are very good, even though I think the headspikes are a bit much.

I think the top one is a male wytch so it kind of fits thematically, but not with faerun elves i agree.

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Those look really cool, a_a. I'm not sure how hard it would be to make 3D models that have to be fully animated that look as good as those still images.

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