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Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.

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Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.

And you misunderstand my point. Elves don't look different from humans to me, for the same reason a caricature drawing of a human might not look like a realistic drawing, but is still recognizable as human all the same.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Eldath

.....
It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.

When I said to drop the argument, I meant it.

Take 3 days away to consider your future behaviour.


Both of them posted after your initial warning, looking at the timing if one didn't see it because they were writing probably neither did the other. Shouldn't you be banning both or neither?

Ngl, it's also kinda funny that the non-white person is getting suspended after they got dragged into an argument about race and social justice by a white person. Not racist, make no mistake, just really hysterical.

And hey, if i get the bench too for saying this i'm also non-white, which would only add to the comicity levels in my book.



If Sadurian wants to punish me as well, I wouldn't object. It takes two people to make an argument, after all.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.


Those pictures are very nice however no i don't want to see faces like that on elves. Rotate a bit more the eyes make the nose a little longer and they would be fitting for wild elf or wood elf tho. The second one all it neded is just a little inward rotation on the eye line and would be perfect.

Last edited by Rieline; 04/12/20 05:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.

And you misunderstand my point. Elves don't look different from humans to me, for the same reason a caricature drawing of a human might not look like a realistic drawing, but is still recognizable as human all the same.

Well, with that kind of logic, you can define most fantasy races as humans.


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Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves have by lore distinct feature from the humans. Now in bg3 elves are not represented even correctly adding more "Diversity" to the race would be basically breaking the lore you may argue they look too much caucasian i say they really look way too much humans to start with.

As you see Elves have a bone structure of the face that is not caucasian at all in the pen and paper so in that Larian did the elves completely wrong.

If you want to make a character of elven heritage that have respemblance to a specific etnicy i would suggest you to make an half elf because they still have elven tracts but they retain featurers from the other other blood as well.[Linked Image]




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.

[Linked Image]




Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?


The fact that it has no justification in the lore. I have nothing against new faces (Although I would like this to primarily affect the dwarves), but I would like these faces to comply with the established canons.
If there were elves with black people facial features in Faerûn, I would not have written a word, but I do not remember that such elves existed in the setting.
And one more thing, I don't know if this is important for our discussion or not, but I do not approve of the ability to turn off restrictions on colors, this function annoys me a little... This is a subjective opinion.




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?


1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me. Is not a necessary add on. What needs to be done in my opinion is move the current elven head in the half race elf. And then implement proper elven head. In the case of OP i think wild elves would be perfect to her. Also again adding human diversity of a race that again "Is not supposed to be human at all" is completely unnecessary and kills off the distinct tracts of that specific rest.

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.




Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to makenon-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.


I won't define my statements like compaling. I am just giving feedback. TO be clear with you i would not have problem if those would be just tied to your character as i could chose to ignore that. I would have a problem tho if i would see in the game elven npc with Asian,African,Cacuasian,Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking. I also think that developing something to add human diversity to a race that is not supposed to have Human ethnicy would be a waste of resources. I'd rather would instead they focus the development on made the elven heads actually elven.

Also you are starting to go in the zone of assumption there is nothing to assume my position is pretty clear and is not meant to offend anybody. Also do you want to make an elven char that has also a human Ethnicy? do it! That's what half elves are for.




Okay.

Not gonna talk about politics, not gonna be snarky. (Okay, I don't exactly know where the line is between being "cheeky" and being "snarky", but I'm going to try.)

But I am gonna dig into this some more.


First of all, +9999 to all of Braxton's posts. I'm with this person.


Maybe we need to take off our choir robes for the Holy Church of The Lore™ for a minute, here. I've seen a few people use this idea of "The Lore™" to counter requests like the original poster's. I quoted a couple of you above, but you're not the only people who feel this way.

But what IS The Lore™? Forgotten Realms, and D&D as a brand in general, is an ever-evolving, ever-changing mishmash of the disparate ideas of hundreds of various creative minds. Ed Greenwood was the original creator of FR, but since then many, many other people have changed his original ideas. (And he no longer owns the IP, so he kinda has no authoritative say in it now.) But I'd bet any amount of money that if I asked Ed Greenwood, "Hey, can I have an elf with African facial features in Faerun?" he'd laugh and say, "Of course you can!"

From edition to edition, MASSIVE changes take place to the sacred "lore", often times COMPLETELY retconning huge chunks of the narrative underpinnings of the setting, and countless small details. Heck, the entire cosmology of the planes, the entire metaphysical basis of EXISTENCE in these realms, is completely re-designed with EVERY editiion.

In 1e, devils were devils, though they had little in common, mechanically, with the devils of today. In 2e, suddenly they were "baatezu", because of real world concerns influencing the designers to step away from a problematic term. They were from the "lower planes" and specifically a plane that embodied lawfulness and evilness. But then in 3e, hey look, devils again, and now they're from a new group of planes, the "fiendish planes", and their plane no longer has anything to do with law. 4e comes along and suddenly devils come from the Astral Sea, same place as the gods, and they're in the same category of creature as ANGELS. 5e, they're back to being "baatezu" but ALSO "devils", and hey, they're once again from the "lower planes" (but these are a different layout of planes than the old ones). Tieflings are almost totally unrecognizable from their earliest incarnations, as are dragonborn. And the list of these kinds of constant changes would be insanely long.

How exactly are we supposed to maintain some ironclad "immersion" based on setting consistency when the setting is never consistent in the first place? Sometimes they even change the lore WITHIN an edition. When even the people who write about the setting don't give a toss about their own previously-written lore, how are we supposed to take it seriously? Whatever it says now, in 5e, will probably be totally different in a couple of years, anyway. In short, there IS no "The Lore™".

This isn't Middle-earth, a monolithic setting that was (mostly) the work of one creator with absolute authority over it, and functionally became sacrosanct when he died. If you want a The One True Lore to worship at the altar of, Tolkien's world is a perfect place to do it. But that's not even remotely true for Faerun, which is about as constant as Lady Gaga's hairstyle.

And if the argument is "well only current 5e lore counts", then why are we posting old images from the 3rd edition Player's Handbook and pointing to them as though they're the Code of Hammurabi? One The Lore™ for all time (if it's convenient to whatever I happen to want).

The elves don't have some totally alien features that looks nothing like Caucasian people. They are clearly based on Caucasian people, and slightly modified. I know this is true, because for DECADES the only pictures of elves showed them with white skin. Because they were definitely based on white people originally. "These aren't Caucasian features, these are ELVEN features, see?" doesn't hold any water with me. And literally nothing about the narrative underpinnings of the fictional fantasy elf race changes if you draw a few elves with African facial features. The character of the elven people doesn't change. The history of the elven people doesn't change. The interests and talents of the elven people don't change. Elves do not stop being elves because they have a little different bone structure that happens to be different from how I look.

Let's not even talk about (by that I mean, "let's definitely talk about") the hundreds (maybe thousands?) of different artists' depiction of elves in hundreds and hundreds of official D&D products. If it's in a TSR or WotC book, it's official art. So ANY way that you've seen an elf depicted in ANY D&D book is a valid possible way that elves could look. And if that's the case (it is), then no, elves are not "supposed" to have any particular facial configuration, since they've been drawn a hugely varied number of ways by the "official" artists. You can't just cherry-pick a single, specific old image from two editions ago and say, "This is how they're supposed to be!" And that picture in the 5e PHB totally looks like a regular Caucasian person with very minor alterations to appear slightly more angular. Cut the games with this whole "here's ONE image that proves how elves are SUPPOSED to look, according to The Lore™" thing.

Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?


Quote
"Adding things that breaks the lore SMASH the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me."

(I added the caps for style.) Okay, wow. I literally can't even respond to this line without creeping dangerously close to that "snark" category, so I'm just gonna leave it alone.

"Completely unnecessary", eh? For whom, exactly? For you, obviously, but the very post that you are responding to proves that it IS something important to SOME people. "This change does nothing for ME, therefore it is completely unnecessary." Interesting take.

Okay, hold the fish taco up. I think I found the part where all of this argument (the one about The Lore™ and such) really starts to break down here. "I wasn't talking about the cheeks". Really now? So The Lore™ is only binding when it fits the exact thing that you want to be true? You can't point at an image and say, "Here, before you, BEHOLD the one true appearance of elves!", and then go back and say, "Oh, but not those cheeks though. Just the other stuff." You think that an elf having a more African-looking bone structure would SMASH The Lore™, but chubby cheeks mystically do not? How does this make any sense -- oh wait, it's just because you LIKE the chubby cheeks. I'm sorry, but "chubby elves" obliterates my immersion and also retroactively ruins every memory I have of playing D&D for 30+ years. And just from looking at that picture, I think I have schizoaffective disorder now*.

* (Ha, psych, I already had it.)

This whole Cheeksgate debacle (as I shall now call it, precisely once) really puts every other argument you've made on shaky ground here. It almost feels like you're being disingenuous or something, but I can't say that for sure. "They have to look like THIS. Except for the cheeks, those can look like whatevs. But don't you DARE broaden that nose or the entire verisimilitude of Faerun is SHATTERED." Come on, are you being serious?


Quote
"I would have a problem though if I would see in the game elven NPC with Asian, African, Caucasian, Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking."

(Cleaned that up just a bit for you.) Um, the game is already chock-full of elves with Caucasian faces. How is it possible that you don't see that? No really, I am genuinely asking. I feel like this has to be some kind of willful blindness or something?


[Linked Image]


If she was any more Caucasian-looking, her name would have to be Karen instead of Kagha. Please come with something better than this.


For my final trick, I'm just gonna drop a quote that is posted on the store pages for every older D&D book for sale online. They posted this EVERYWHERE. They being Wizards of the Coast. Creators of D&D and ACTUAL arbiters of The Lore™.

We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.


Helpful link so you know I didn't make that quote up: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/produc...--QuickStart-Rules-4e?src=also_purchased


The Lore™? SMASHED.

Now that's a lot of words, so I'll just paraphrase: "We, Wizards of the Coast, have come to the wise conclusion that the societal impact of our work is actually a lot more important than strict pedantic adherence to whatever dodgy lore we might have come up with before (and we change it all the time anyway, lol), so we are quite nakedly disavowing some of The Lore™ because it no longer contributes to the kind of real world that we (Wizards) want to live in. In short, and we say this in our official capacity, fuck The Lore™."


But hey, what do I know?



Last edited by Firesnakearies; 04/12/20 07:31 PM.
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I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.))

















Last edited by Rieline; 04/12/20 07:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
too long


That was a very long appeal to authority there, and it just made me want to register in order to respond.
I don't particularly care what WoTC think after they created the absolute blunder that was 4th edition, that clearly signaled that they have neither respect nor love for the setting or good taste in art, they merely went out of their way to appeal to the lowest common denominator to make their products more marketable, and that is a bussiness decision.

I do not respect bussiness decisions when it comes to world building, lore and storytelling.
I am siding against ethnic representation in non-human races simply because they are not human.
I think many already said in this topic that elves sohuld look more elfy, so the gotcha that Kagha looks caucasian is not going to work because well... we don't like that either.

We want elves to be their own distinct group without human baggage being projected upon them, and elves are incredibly diverse in D&D.
If you want to play a darker skinned elf, there are so many choices: wild elves, moon elves, sun elves, drow, etc etc, but the idea that elves are somehow representatives for your real-life grievances (or that they should be representatives) is just a clearly political move that has no place in a fantasy setting. Now I understand that for WoTC everything is about profit margins now, but if you water everything down to realworld politics, you will lose the spirit of this setting and it will become the grey blob that all other settings tend towards. Now of course, maybe the damage is already done and I'm just shouting at the coming abyss, but I thought I put my 2 cents out there, after all why shouldn't I? If nobody cares I might as well just say it anyway.

Also I just have to put this out there...
Why is it that only your side should always get what they want? Because that's what always keeps happening.
You invade a fandom, turn it upside down, totally ruining it for everybody else and you just dismiss every complaint by posturing yourself to be on the right side of history.
I just want to play my damn videogames without harrasment, but apparently everything has to be about how liberals are so righteous and benevolent... except they are not.
When will somebody care about what my side of politics want? When will somebody care that I want to rpeserve some sense of canon? Should I complain and bellyache about how some characters had sex before marriage becasue I'm more of a traditionalist? Would I be listened to? No! I would be ridiculed!

Seriously, why does the entire world has to be about you getting your way while pretending to care about other people? How long will people put up with people like you? This will be my first and last post here so damn the consequences: Screw you and screw people like you, I fucking hate your liberal guts and I hope that one day you will understand what it's like to have everything taken from you so that you know what it's like to be the people you keep dispossessing with your bullshit. We can't even have a realm of fantasy without your fucking meddling.
Fuck you.

Last edited by Darthruul; 04/12/20 08:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Darthruul
I just want to play my damn videogames without harrasment,


You're probably not going to be receptive to this at the moment, but if you consider people asking for more diversity in character customisation as harrasment of you then your perception of reality is unhealthily skewed. Not just for society in general, but for yourself. As your post demonstrates you'll just end up getting extremely angry and fester around an irrational sense of victimhood because you've convinced yourself that people are out to get you. When really, it's nothing to do with you.


Originally Posted by Darthruul
When will somebody care about what my side of politics want? When will somebody care that I want to rpeserve some sense of canon? Should I complain and bellyache about how some characters had sex before marriage becasue I'm more of a traditionalist? Would I be listened to? No! I would be ridiculed!


When? There are many places in the world, and many prominent political parties, that have these kind of views that most western nations consider antiquated. You're not entitled to people caring about your views just because you have them. People will care about your views if they're something worth caring for. And history has pretty firmly shown that views regarding restrictions for premarital sex are not views worth caring about, all they aim to do is rob people of liberty and punish them for unjustifiable reasons.

Last edited by Braxton; 04/12/20 08:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Okay.

Not gonna talk about politics, not gonna be snarky. (Okay, I don't exactly know where the line is between being "cheeky" and being "snarky", but I'm going to try.)

But I am gonna dig into this some more.



Thank you for doing so smile Great comprehensive post and IMO the snarkiness was merited given the topic matter, and wasn't needlessly aggressive like some others in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Darthruul
Seriously, why does the entire world has to be about you getting your way while pretending to care about other people? How long will people put up with people like you? This will be my first and last post here so damn the consequences: Screw you and screw people like you, I fucking hate your liberal guts and I hope that one day you will understand what it's like to have everything taken from you so that you know what it's like to be the people you keep dispossessing with your bullshit. We can't even have a realm of fantasy without your fucking meddling.
Fuck you.

Creating an Alt. account to bypass a suspension is not a great idea.

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Lots of people have said it, especially well by black_elk on the first page, but if larian/wotc are going down the road of "elves pretty much look like humans with pointy ears" then there is no reason why then have to just be white people. I already made the point that imo I would like elves to be more alien, like eldar & dark eldar are done in 40k, with facial features which arerather different from humans in general, but since that currently seems unlikely (but not impossible!) I don't see any forgotten realms lore that says that elves, if they are to look like humans with pointy ears, must only look like (reskinned) white people with pointy ears.

I'll say again that I wish elves in were more alien looking and acting in general, which I think would fit well with the idea of elves, but if that is not going to happen there seems to be no reason to get worked up specifically about wanting elves to only have caucasian bone-structure or something like that, rather than say wanting elves to look more wierd and "elvish".

edit: as it stands, with the approach that larian has chosen it feel like player choice should be king, or indeed queen.

Last edited by alice_ashpool; 04/12/20 08:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Lots of people have said it, especially well by black_elk on the first page, but if larian/wotc are going down the road of "elves pretty much look like humans with pointy ears" then there is no reason why then have to just be white people. I already made the point that imo I would like elves to be more alien, like eldar & dark eldar are done in 40k, with facial features which arerather different from humans in general, but since that currently seems unlikely (but not impossible!) I don't see any forgotten realms lore that says that elves, if they are to look like humans with pointy ears, must only look like (reskinned) white people with pointy ears.

I'll say again that I wish elves in were more alien looking and acting in general, which I think would fit well with the idea of elves, but if that is not going to happen there seems to be no reason to get worked up specifically about wanting elves to only have caucasian bone-structure or something like that, rather than say wanting elves to look more wierd and "elvish".

edit: as it stands, with the approach that larian has chosen it feel like player choice should be king, or indeed queen.


And sadly that approach is killing the unique tracts of a race. I would love for Larian to listen to this.

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Originally Posted by Rieline
I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.)



Yeah, Rieline, It's fine. I don't think you're being hostile, or malicious, or offensive (at least not overtly so), or racist, or a bad person. What I think you MIGHT be being, is intellectually dishonest. But I can't read your mind, so I could be wrong. And even if you are, I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose. People fail to see their own biases all the time, people unknowingly make specious claims to support what they want to be true all the time. It doesn't make you The Enemy.

It's not your opinions that I object to, it's just the poor quality of your arguments for them.

But I've said my piece, so at this point I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. Feel free to continue repeating your same points over and over, or whatever you want to do. I ain't mad at ya.

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I'm just saying before I speak that I am indeed a person that usually draws my elven characters to look more humanish, and am very loose with a lot of lore aspects, so I'm sure that I have a bias that others don't have.

I agree that there should be more face shapes/ adjustments in the menu, I think it would make the character creator much more versatile and fun! Maybe there could be face options that are traditionally elven, more humanlike, and maybe something in the middle. I understand creating your ideal self in a game like this; the menu is really fun and it's cool making a fantasy version of yourself to play around with!! I'm hoping that as development goes further, deeper customization options will be added for all of the races.


"i straight up thought that gale was shouting 'eat this!!' when he was casting fire bolt
like yeah dude!!! eat that!!! break his legs!!!!" - Socrates
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^^^ This this!


"i straight up thought that gale was shouting 'eat this!!' when he was casting fire bolt
like yeah dude!!! eat that!!! break his legs!!!!" - Socrates
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I love that you just agreed with yourself wink


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Would love to see more features that include almost a "persian or arab" look, I use this loosely as it's such a variety in itself but I'm not entirely sure how to express this as I'm not great at explaining things! But I'll give it a good ol go

I would just like to see more males and female with more wide set or hooked noses, even narrow noses! (I understand that is not a feature all persians and arabs have but it is what a majority do)

(I know I just specified a race of people but I dont want to make this about that I just want to bring up a personal issue I have with the lack of "persian" or "arab" features)

I just find that a majority of the options are quite eurocentric which is obviously not a negative thing at all (since again that is a variety in itself and that's always good to include options so I'm by no means suggesting take any of these features out) but it's almost disheartening to see that there isnt many options for POC!

I understand it's still EA and they might add more, (I hope) I just want to express that if they do it would be nice to feel included, even if it's just as simple as adding a new head with a more defined nose!
I understand that it's only character creation and I shouldn't be too worried or concerned because the game itself is remarkable! But again it's nice to feel included since I hardly see any game characters with similar features to my own!

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Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.


Those pictures are very nice however no i don't want to see faces like that on elves. Rotate a bit more the eyes make the nose a little longer and they would be fitting for wild elf or wood elf tho. The second one all it neded is just a little inward rotation on the eye line and would be perfect.


This doesn’t bother me hugely, but I agree that these don’t really look elven enough to me (face shape wise). In a world where half-elves exist, I think elves should be more distinct. These all feel like half-elves to me. I think the LOTR movies could be partly to blame – because of the difficulties of casting, many of the elves weren’t at all otherworldly. The two actual half-elves in those movies (Arwen and Elrond) were basically just humans with slightly pointy ears.

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Just popping in to say I absolutely agree with the OP! It all comes down to player choice, and if you're going to trade on a vibrant and varied Character Creator, it can't hurt to add more choice officially, not just leave it up to Modders. (I say this with complete faith that there's more faces in the works, I know the racial flags I've seen, but I do hope there's more added to the current races too!)

Even the new LotR game is looking to diversify its elves because they realised it's past time to put away the childish argument that 'ethereal = white'. It took World of Warcraft until this very expac to finally allow Blood Elves, a race which worships the Sun, dark skin--but they did it! And people are still crying Lore over it! They worship the SUN, people! The big tanning orb in the SKY!

There will, unfortunately, always be people that complain their immersion is ruined if they see a black elf, or an asian elf, or anything other than a 70s Ralph Bakshi elf. They cling to, as already said a hundred times above and even by Wizards themselves, a wholly outdated version of fictional race. It's not impossible to translate black features, asian features, middle eastern features into 'elven' looks, but at it's core:

Some of these races exist. They have real effects on real people, and having the tangible opportunity to make a pretty, ethereal creature look like someone you could feasibly be in fantasy can only further invite you into a space you've historically been underrepresented in for too long.

Some of these races are not real, and they do not experience any real world consequences to their race being bickered and hissed over. Because they do not exist. They can be anything you imagine them to be, and if not you, anything anyone else can imagine them to be too.

Anyway last point: I'm Indian and Larian if you're out there: More! Hook! Noses! Please!

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