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Gosh this thread has sure been a read....

I'd like to add my vote to the "Elves should look less human" crowd. I know it's the wrong franchise, but I actually loved the way Elder Scrolls did their Mer (except in oblivion, but every person in that game had pudding-face disease, and you can't convince me otherwise), they have very dramatic exaggerated features that are quite distinctly not-human, and they come in a big range of non-human skin tones too.

But, failing that, if our Elves in this game are going to look more human, then I'd love for there to be more options and appearances. I'll never hate there being more choices to make characters.

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Just give them tilted eyes.
Problem solved.

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Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.

Last edited by Innateagle; 05/12/20 01:13 AM.
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I'm not satisfied with the facial options presented so far in almost every race. They are all lacking and none of them have anything that I really enjoy.

It's a bit sad.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Rieline
I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.)



Yeah, Rieline, It's fine. I don't think you're being hostile, or malicious, or offensive (at least not overtly so), or racist, or a bad person. What I think you MIGHT be being, is intellectually dishonest. But I can't read your mind, so I could be wrong. And even if you are, I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose. People fail to see their own biases all the time, people unknowingly make specious claims to support what they want to be true all the time. It doesn't make you The Enemy.

It's not your opinions that I object to, it's just the poor quality of your arguments for them.

But I've said my piece, so at this point I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. Feel free to continue repeating your same points over and over, or whatever you want to do. I ain't mad at ya.



I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go you could think i am biased or intellectually dishonest however i am not judging you for thinking differently than me if you think this about me just after an exchange of a few words well i don't think will be healthly to keep arguing and talking.

My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.

What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.

Last edited by Rieline; 05/12/20 01:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Wowee, then white people gotta fight for their own inclusivity. You can enlist asians, arabs and the deer guy from twitch. Fight the good fight and tell me how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Originally Posted by Rieline

I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go


Some friendly advice back; there is nothing wrong with people getting upset or angry at certain views, and telling people to "be civil" or "calm down" is a common tactic to try to discredit them. Just look at Colin Kaepernick who protested civil rights in an incredibly calm, non-disruptive way and yet he was hounded for not being respectful or civil.

Originally Posted by Rieline
My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.


Elves are not presented as aliens, as has been pointed out if any of these elves walked down the street, minus the ears, you'd think nothing of it. If Larian had decided to create novel elven facial features that don't align with any RL ethnicities then you'd have more of a leg to stand on. But they've not done that, they've not indicated they're going to do that, they've made elves with caucasian features. In which case the RL inclusivity argument definitely holds. See above for the statement from wizards.

Originally Posted by Rieline
What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.


Your moral integrity isn' in question because you disagree, it's because of how you disagree. Seriously, a slippery slope argument? Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Not that it makes any difference, but Bib Fortuna is a twi’lek too!

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Originally Posted by Braxton
[quote=Innateagle]Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.


If I understand your point correctly, the argument could also be made that elves have 'significantly novel features'; elongated faces, pointed ears, slanted eyes, overtly fine features...or at least as far as I am aware. In essence, they aren't human but I appreciate visually there are of course similarities but that could be said of dozens of other races, anything with 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose and a mouth.

I have mentioned it several times but I find the male elven heads far too human in this game.

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Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd



No idea who the wizard of the coast are, but i'm glad you care enough about their opinions that you present theirs as if they were your own. You probably should have searched for a better quote, though, since that one specifically talks about the diversity of the 'human' race in DnD. 'Human', which is fine.

I admit, though, i haven't thought about it for more than ten seconds. Probably because i'm a black person who feels more like a person than black, and therefore i don't feel the need to self-insert or be represented in every piece of media i come across to validate myself or feel better about the color of my skin.

But hey, if you feel like african high elves or dark skinned rattataki are needed to validate people, cool. I know i said i'm a black man but i actually identify as a caucasian drow, so next fight for that too.

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I think elves really need to be made to look more like elves, because they just look human and it causes a lot of confusion.
Also, aren't there elven subraces that satisfy what OP wants? I'm pretty sure there must be at elast a few of them.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle

No idea who the wizard of the coast are,


The owner of D&D.
They recently went on a full on "inclusive" spree after several negative reports about them.
That includes no more evil races because orcs were a stand in for black people, (or Asians, people are not sure which, but it has to be racist) and you can't have them be always evil. They also started to put warning labels in all their older books sold online that they might trigger someone. And in their newest book which represents their vision for the future of the brand you can freely swap ability adjustments from races because its racist that people are defined by their biology.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Innateagle

No idea who the wizard of the coast are,


The owner of D&D.
They recently went on a full on "inclusive" spree after several negative reports about them.
That includes no more evil races because orcs were a stand in for black people, (or Asians, people are not sure which, but it has to be racist) and you can't have them be always evil. They also started to put warning labels in all their older books sold online that they might trigger someone. And in their newest book which represents their vision for the future of the brand you can freely swap ability adjustments from races because its racist that people are defined by their biology.


Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'. My angtsy teenage self would be sad, i really lived the half-orc ghetto dream in the original BGs.

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I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.

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Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.

They are not supposed to look super alien, but they supposed to have "lighter" skeleton:
Narrow noses
Narrow chins
Slightly androgynous slim body. Consider that while with 170cm healthy weight for a human is 60kg, for an elf it's 50. And elven fey ancestors had no gender.
And yes, tilted eyes not in human way. A human would still have quite straight brow line, elves supposed to have that tilted too.

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Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

Last edited by Nyloth; 05/12/20 01:48 PM.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'.


More like: they got bullied into compliance by a twitter cancel mob. Wizards have recently had a bunch of bad run ins with the twitter cancel mobs over different things and it's clearly starting to affect them.

All the actual diversity and work that wizards have put into leaving the old neckbeard stereotypes behind for 5e behind was already done, but it's literally never enough for groups like this, no amount of effort will ever be enough and no work will ever come up to their impossible standards. Groups like this have already gotten works by actual POC authors writing about their own lives and experiences dropped from publishing companies because they weren't doing it "right" enough. Any kind of works that come out for the diverse audience are picked apart piece by piece until someone finds something even slightly wrong that some person did or is doing and then the hashtags begin. Unfortunately we are now at a stage where people tanking you on social media spreads without consideration for fact checking or context and this does affect brands and their ability to operate.

I really get quite annoyed by the whole "Orcs/Drow are stand ins for black people" argument, because it didn't hold weight in the Tolkien circles, (because the orcs based off mongols, not MENA people, not that that's any better, really) and it shouldn't hold weight in D&D, because, amazingly, we already had black people in D&D and they are usually called humans, but here we are.

In conclusion: Twitter is a hellsite and only one rung above the youtube comments section; and cancel culture is just groupthink 2.0 and needs to fucking stop.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!


Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

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Originally Posted by Piff
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'.


More like: they got bullied into compliance by a twitter cancel mob. Wizards have recently had a bunch of bad run ins with the twitter cancel mobs over different things and it's clearly starting to affect them.


Isn't that what getting 'woke' means nowadays?

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