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Originally Posted by dotmats

edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"


No, it's not. It's the same as we are doing. Asking Larian to listen to our preferences rather than someone else's.

Last edited by Dexai; 05/12/20 11:20 AM.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor
Yeah but a character is about a story and a background. What you suggest is basically BG3 having several Commander Shephard's that you can tweak into your liking instead of actual characters you can play as.
If you want to play as a custom character thats fine, but Larian is already doing that. Astarion is Astarion, he is a rogue and thats it.
Gale is inseparable from his Wizardry, he wouldn't even work as a sorcerer, because he is too much of a nerd.


If you feel that way then play Gale as he is. All this would do is allow other people to have a comparable experience but in ways which make sense to them. How they could potentially play would not impact anyone else in the slightest

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I might also mention - we have something we choose, in character generation, called "background".

If they fleshed those out from the hand book, into proto-story bases that pre-define a certain handful of details about your character, and then build on those details within the world using those background tags, it would at least somewhat do the job of creating an anchored feeling for our character that we nevertheless got to choose... all the groundwork for doing that is already there, and they could most certainly have focused on doing that, rather than creating dialogue lines that anyone should be able to say and gating them behind race or class tags (apparently, according to Larian's current design, only halflings are allowed to council people to calm down and talk our their arguments...)

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by dotmats

edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"


No, it's not. It's the same as we are doing. Asking Larian to listen to our preferences rather than someone else's.


It isn't what I feel like I'm doing, which is understanding that my opinion will be one opinion and it's up to them to choose what to take from it/ do.

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My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.

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Originally Posted by dotmats


edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"

Dude, what is rude about praising Larian for what they are doing if I like it?

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Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument

Last edited by DistantStranger; 05/12/20 11:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by dotmats


edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"

Dude, what is rude about praising Larian for what they are doing if I like it?

The rudeness is starting by petitioning for people to be ignored. Nothing about what your opinion actually is.

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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument


Yeah, I don't want to limit it now either. Its too late and all the bad influences for the game are already in there (like the way cinematics are done, story that has been writen, amount of time spent on making origin characters both NPCs and PCs,...). I just generally don't like this approach. If you drop your GM characters on the players show some restraint to leave room for the players to customize them and actually experience their story. But everything Larian is doing with characters is in my opinion very unexerpienced and causes issues. Especially if you keep in mind that the 'very important custom character' story is also only exerpienced by the player if he plays the way they want the player to do it (using the tadpole). If you don't do it, you get nothing.

So to me Larian made huge mistakes that have already put BG3 on a path that they can hardly correct. Being critized for it with DOS2 and repeating it for BG3 shows that they either didn't understand or value their own perspective more than what players say. I can just judge their work based on what they said BG3 would be and to me they failed to deliver a meaningful custom character experience because they stick to their ways.

But since they are already in the game, just let those enjoy it that do. At this point they can't cause any additional harm.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I like the origins, so this is a big ole shrug from me.

Until a game developer actually gets to the point where a custom character is fully-voiced and has a massive questionnaire attached to character creation that will dictate what I'm likely to do in different situations and how I feel about certain ideologies, an origin character will always be my go-to because I'd rather have a complete experience with a dedicated personality that's set in stone. The idea of "Tav" awkwardly emoting or only choosing from oversimplified options throughout the adventure is terribly boring to me.

A game developer would need to partner with someone like eHarmony and come up with some 300 question survey and include an MBTI test in order to have a custom character feel like they're of any consequence to the world.


They would not need to do a survey.

I personally don't care about the voice acting.

That is not to say the voice actors don't do a good job. They do.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by dotmats
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!


You're playing as a BG2 companion without the origin system, so what's the problem?


The problem is that making it happen is easy with BG2.You just choose the portrait of a given character, assign them the same stats and download their voiceset. That's it!

Making that happen in BG3? Good luck!
You can't select Astarion's voice acting and headmorph in character creation either, so that's off the table as well!

I'm really looking forward to play as the origin characters, in fact that's the main appeal of the game for me if they force a voice acted protagonist on us!
If I get stuck with a voice acted MC AND I can't play as origin characters, I will not buy the game. Something's gotta give.


I had to LOL for this.

Like a adult head on a baby body

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Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.



This. Yes.

Give the characters background, it is fine.

But making them the main cast over your characters? Meh.

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Originally Posted by biomag
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument


Yeah, I don't want to limit it now either. Its too late and all the bad influences for the game are already in there (like the way cinematics are done, story that has been writen, amount of time spent on making origin characters both NPCs and PCs,...). I just generally don't like this approach. If you drop your GM characters on the players show some restraint to leave room for the players to customize them and actually experience their story. But everything Larian is doing with characters is in my opinion very unexerpienced and causes issues. Especially if you keep in mind that the 'very important custom character' story is also only exerpienced by the player if he plays the way they want the player to do it (using the tadpole). If you don't do it, you get nothing.

So to me Larian made huge mistakes that have already put BG3 on a path that they can hardly correct. Being critized for it with DOS2 and repeating it for BG3 shows that they either didn't understand or value their own perspective more than what players say. I can just judge their work based on what they said BG3 would be and to me they failed to deliver a meaningful custom character experience because they stick to their ways.

But since they are already in the game, just let those enjoy it that do. At this point they can't cause any additional harm.


Larian will make the choice they will make.

But I have faith that I have a voice, that I can state my opinion, and that Larian may take it into account.

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"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."

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Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Larian said they want feedback wink this thread is a good feel for how people feel about origins.

One for, MANY against.

The ball is in Larians court now.

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I don't hate origin characters per se, indeed, I think it's a step forward for games in general to introduce both custom and fixed protagonists. This grants you the benefits of both: you can have very specific tailored story and reactions for your fixed (origin) characters and the freedom/versatility of custom characters. In theory, it's a great system and I hope it evolves into something amazing over the years.

However, this requires massive resources which are completely wasted if the dual system isn't done REALLY well. From what I can tell, it isn't in BG3.

What the OP calls templates, and I "half-origins" or "DA:O-style origins", is something I've been long advocating for. It's the best of two worlds: customizability and extra reactivity. You could have a whole spectrum of those: from something that could be mostly recreated with custom characters, but with extra backstory, to something very specific/"odd" like the oft-suggested custom vampire spawn. Depending on the chosen "half-origin", different things could be locked; only Criminal background (and everything else customizable) for a member of a certain gang, most things locked for a tiefling sage from Sigil or an exiled/runaway ex-Lolth priestess. An extra benefit of this system is that it would likely take less work to make a bunch of these than to make one origin. From what Larian said, BG3 origins are ridiculously content-heavy.

I am, however, against the option to customize existing, fixed origins. This would remove one advantage they have: expanded story and reactivity. Diluting those would make origins completely half-assed.

Regarding (D&D-sense) backgrounds Niara mentioned: I... half-agree. Backgrounds could definitely use more reactivity, but tying custom character backgrounds to specific backstories would remove some of the "custom" from custom characters. It would need to be done very carefully. I respect Larian's reason for removing background dialogue options - though, like I said, I still think something more could be done with backgrounds. Just... carefully and with lots of consideration.

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Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Any chance you live in central California and enjoy bourbon? If so, I have a weekly drinking night with some buddies I imagine you might be welcomed at. Once the C-19 blows over anyway. its a closed circle til then

Last edited by DistantStranger; 05/12/20 12:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Any chance you live in central California and enjoy bourbon? If so, I have a weekly drinking night with some buddies I imagine you might be welcomed at. Once the C-19 blows over anyway. its a closed circle til then


6000 miles away, according to google, but on the other hand I do like bourbon.

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Well if you are ever in the neighborhood, just quote Cioran again to gain immediate entry and acceptance into whatever I am doing at that moment.

Those who love philosophy all too few in number anymore to simply disregard and accommodating any number of them is always worth the inconvenience for the sake of conversation.

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Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Phea
@DistantStranger It's not only about these parents look from my example. It's also writing and context. You can't just generate this.


Yes you can, games do it all the time. This is what programming does, it permeates outcomes based upon formulaic variable. Like an excel spreadsheet. Input dictates output.


Yes, but you still have to write lines which your program will use to generate dialogue. You have to fill these excel spreadsheet with something and you have to carefully plan it to avoid silly results.
This is why I love to create my own characters in tabletop RPGs and I don't really like to do it in video games - they will always be generic to some extent.

Last edited by Phea; 05/12/20 04:37 PM.
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